2000 American Soldier deaths

I will agree with you that history is full of military actions that seemed to be the only passable course of action at the time. My point is that war is an evil and should be avoided if possible. Once war starts it is nasty, brutish, and horrible (a nod to Hobbes). As Sherman said, "War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it."

My major point in this and other threads is that it is moral to hate the war and love the solder. No man that acts in a legal manner under legal orders is a murderer and to call him such a thing leads to an oversimplification of the issue and a cheapening of the discussion.

 

The purpose of a standing army is to preserve order and provide for the common defense. It should, in the best of situations, serve as a deterrent and as a tool for the education and training of young people. I enlisted in the army and served as a medic in order to carry out a family tradition and to discharge my debt to my country. In the real world, basic training contains many mechanisms for weeding out people who might enjoy killing. Such people are dangerous, undisciplined and are of poor effectiveness in combat. As far as the reserve obligation that you undergo after you serve a tour of duty. That is laid out up front in a fairly clear explanation

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I hate to say this, but they signed up for it. Im tired of hearing people whine about having to serve in a war. well, dumbfuck, you signed up for the army..... what did you think was going to happen?? some of us have to pay for our college, and you were getting your college paid for...... there is some consequences to that.... everything isnt free.

 

I never said all war is unnecessary or unjust - only every war America has partaken in since WW2 (with the possible exception of Kosovo). 'Economically Justifiable War' is merely a euphemism for stealing. Cases where it would ethical to intervene, such as Rwanda and East Timor, have been flatly ignored because there is nothing profitable there (in East Timor, you actually supplied the Indonesian side for 25 years as they essentially killed two thirds of a population).

I am merely holding soldiers accountable for their actions - the excuse "I was only following orders" is so piss-poor it makes me sick. As is "I joined before the war" because your Army's history is so terrible that Iraq is only a grain of sand on a beach; it's obvious you'll be killing innocents. If you must be part of a peace-time standing army, join a Militia.

And then you have Iraqi 'terrorists': homeland starved, invaded twice, under constand nuclear threat (via Israel and thus America), natural resources being stolen, 25 years under an American-propped dictator (Saddam)... No wonder they want revenge. And since they can't stand up to you in conventional means, 'Terrorism' is a better way than most. It's not as if America actually follows Geneva Conventions on 'fair war' anyway. So if they have to kill some soldiers, and maybe some of your citizens to make you go away, then props.

 

very true, the words genocide and violence seem too gentle for what really happened though...
and just look at that sig of yours, i would not really say it is america that caused that. more like george bush and his elite, and greedy little group of demons whose only true problem was themselves... so they preyed on the weak and helpless to for oil and energy and money, and ended up losing oil anyway, because there is SOME kind of loving force in the universe, thank god. there is no WAY they can justify what they did, it just is not possible. it is wrong on almost every level and they know it and i hope they cant sleep at night because of it, but i know their WAYYYYYy too cold for that. they are responsible for more suffering than they can ever imagine..and as much as id like to play the blame game and as much as i could trace back a lot of wrongdoings and fucked up shit and put it on their tab, well, its just not right to do that, not that they would or do care or any of this makes the slighest difference anyway.
peace and love everybodyyy

 

hey you know what would be really cool?

if all these people for the war over in iraq, got themselves down the recruiting centre and joined up now and specifically asked to be sent to the eastern front. it seems that if they loved the war so much and can justify it so much well its time they started putting their money where their mouth is. whats really essential is that they show their solidarity and got themselves down in the trenches. i remember seeing a film a while ago where some guy in an helicopter gets to blow away some farmers mending a tractor. the footage was illuminating for me, it was when this american fellow finishes this wounded farmer crawling around in some field somewhere by some hefty firepower. just imagine the posts some of our pro war crimes hippyland forum members could post from iraq i just can't wait. as i said before, you love the war the so much or you can see so much reason in it, go for it , get yourself over there.

 

Actually I blame Britain too - the two countries that armed and empowered Saddam while he gassed entire villages.

Because crippling economic sanctions aren't "serious action". Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction - or else he would of used them upon attack. He had no "nuclear program" or you would of found it. Saddam was neither insane nor dangerous, only selfish; when the sanctions failed to unseat him after 10-odd years, you invaded under false pretense.

You do realise Saddam Hussein had absolutely nothing to do September 11th, right? The Bush family has closer ties to Osama Bin Laden than he does. And I don't back what up? What would you like? Links on the internet? Would you like me to tell you specific articles to read in peer-reviewed political journals? Tell me how I can prove something to you and I will.

It got to what point? Millions of dead, crippled government, no feasible way to attack the United States...

Not participating in a war hardly means you don't have the right to criticize it.

I have no clue what pattern you're talking about. Explain it.

Why not? They're just going to disarm in exchange for aid down the line anyway.

As far as I know, Iran has never signed a non-nuclear proliferation treaty. So yeas you should. See, I consider state sovereignty more important than America's absolute safety.

I also happen to think Israel is an abomination. Since their creation, they've treated the Palestinians like dogs.

Let me put it in terms you might understand. Say the UN decided that the East Timorese people get the northern half of the American East Coast as recompense for the terrible atrocities commited on them. And then say a foreign nation, lets say France, supplied them more Aid and Military Tools than any other country has ever received - and this new East Timor wantonly kills and oppresses any Americans residing in this new country. How would you feel about that the East Timorese and the French?

That is Israel to the Arabs.

Purposefully.

If a person "won't" fight for themselves, have you ever considered that maybe they don't want the fight at all?

I merely said they joined an organization with a long history of killing innocents. Rational people joining such a group would of course agree with it's precepts and historical examples.

Jog my memory - when did the United States protect Canada? All I can seem to recall is how the last foreign army to set foot on our soil was American (War of 1812), cries of "54-4 or bust", and how Canada backed you up in Afghanistan.

When it comes to terrorism, you present such an alluring target I personally feel quite safe. When it comes to attack from other states, there's always NATO.

Formal education actually.

Ad Hominem is hardly a strong argument.

Being imperfect isn't a crime. In terms of international relations, however, your country is a dirty fucking killer and thief. Which of course is.

I wouldn't encourage too much thought about it - the only logical conclusion is to go out, buy a turban and some dynamite, slip through the oh-so-porous Canadian border and declare a Jihad.

 

Canadian forces have a long and proud military history. I remember Dieppe and Juno Beach. Do you? Canadian forces served in WWI, WWII, Korea, and in Afghanistan. Canadian citizens volunteered to join U.S. forces in Vietnam. Since the first UN peacekeeping force in 1956 Canadian troops have served in 43 peacekeeping missions – more than any other country in the world.

All military forces have a history of killing innocents – that is why war is a bad thing – as I recall there have been a few problems with Canadian forces being somewhat overzealous.

So the US is a dirty fucking killer and thief. Strange I had always thought of the US as being fairly big on cleanliness – lord knows I see enough soap commercials. There is not a government on the planet that has not killed. We have perhaps done a better job than most but no ones hands are clean. All of the United States like all of Canada once belonged to other folks so I guess we can stand together on that.

I also wonder if someone from Parti Québécois would be as much of a nationalist as you seem to be.

However, it is childish of me to try to score points off you. It is my belief that the US has embroiled itself in a pointless war in Iraq. The war had no justification and we stand to gain no benefit from it. I also believe that people throughout the world should join together to object to wars, for the simple reason that all wars cause the death of innocents. However, blaming the individual military members involved in the conflict is unfair, pointless, and unproductive.

Anyone who has seen war will favor a world without it. We would all do better to look to the military for allies than to spend out time calling them names.

 

Would that this oft recited platitude were true HP. Our MIC has produced (and continues to do so) more than a small number of soldier of fortune yahoos who revel in employing their murderous or subversive skills for profit, be they to further the corporate aims of AmeriCorps or those of the highest bidder elsewhere. The constellation of private military contractors (aka Mercs) now in receipt of billions of taxpayer dollars without any accounting to Congress or the citizenry of our nation only further underscores that disturbing truth.

The "I was just following orders" excuse was rubbished as a viable defence for the commission of atrocities at Nurmberg. We would do well to hold Washington and our military machine fully accountable for their many repeated contraventions of those principles since that time.

 

I think that if you look at the members of Blackwater and other private "security" companies you will find quite a number of wantabes. I have no doubt that some of them are true war lovers. There is a breed of man like that. I served with a few. When you looked into their eyes, you could see the reptile. However, they are few and far between.

No one in the American army is trained to believe that "I was just following orders" is any kind of defense for a war crime. All wars are crimes anyway. The solution is not to control war it is to end war.

 

haha, you say that sitting at your computer in arkansas, a state of the United States of America, which wouldnt even exist hadn't it been for war. Stop babbling. War is a natural part of life.

 

geez it looks as if all the hippy nazi's don't have any balls to get down to the army recruitment centre after all? so long suckers

 

It takes more "balls" to make a stand than it does to follow the sheep to the slaughter. Baaaa byyyeee

 

There are a great many things that were once considered a natural part of life. Considering our shared climate, dying from summer fever springs to mind. Dueling in the streets over points of honor used to be fairly common in the south also. However, we have moved a little past that point. I come from a long line of folks who had war as a natural part of their life. It is my great desire to be the last of my family to have seen combat. It is ugly, random, brutal and holds about as much glory as killing a fish with dynamite. I believe that, if you do not object too highly, I will continue to babble.

 

As it happens, I agree with your statement on making a stand. I do not agree with some opinions expressed on this forum. However, I admire anyone who stands up for what they believe.

 

You're comparing something that is solved through medication and advancements in technology to human nature. I'm not going to debate human nature. If you'd like, you could check out some material and catch up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we try the "talk our way" through deal in Iraq? What would a person that opposes violence turn to next? What would've been your plan of action? More talks, I suppose?

 

I do not oppose violence. I oppose the unnecessary loss of the lives of young people. The "problem" in Iraq - if there was one. Could have been solved by the death of a few old men. Let the leaders die for a change.

 

More balls than say a suicide bomber? Or even the freedom-fighters that are out-armed, out-manned, and out-funded?

 

2000 eh? that aint bad if you ask me....means our troops are doing a damn fine job with what theyre being told to do. dont blame those brave soldiers for upholding the wishes of 60 year old men in the capital. the fact theyve only lost 2000 is amazing. as many times as theyre in conflict those are wicked low casualties.....id say commend those guy, and chastise the feds.....not the military.

 

I think Patton said, "Any god-damn fool can die for his country, the objective is to get that other son-of-a-bitch to die for his". Suicide bombing is not a cost effective way to kill American troops. It has done a fair job on killing bystanders however. The insurgent (or one who knows what they are doing) rarely engages in a stand up firefight with his foe. He uses IED's and snipers, unless he can achieve tactical superiority. The American military presence in Iraq is low enough so that tactical superiority can sometimes be achieved in a firefight then you fade before support arrives. The US is a road bound mechanized force with a long soft logistical tail. What more could a gorilla ask for. The insurgents probably have less access to funds than the US. However, I would bet that they are getting more return on their cash than we are. Halliburton is not a force multiplier.