A question about transgender

I don't live in the US, but that is a great thing to hear. Hopefully this is the first major step in this practice being stopped altogether. The last point you made: "Gotta be problems with that during childhood" was exactly the justification used by doctors for operating on intersex babies. It was seen as in the child's best interests to make them physically appear as one sex (and in turn, gender) to prevent possible bullying, and to make it easier for them to integrate into society. The big problem with that is, that your gender is chosen due to your physical sex. So once it's decided how to operate, the child's sex is then "chosen" based on the main look of the sex organs after surgery. There has been countless cases of these children growing up feeling the opposite gender of which was chosen for them, and far from making life easier for them, the decision has wrecked a lot of people's lives, including my own.

The best road to go down is when the child is old enough to express the gender they feel they are, then the child's gender should be based on that. Then any surgery/treatments that are administered after that is purely in the child's interests, and not society's. Intersex isnt widely known about, because it was largely hidden away. With most intersex children being operated on. The best way to change society's attitudes on gender and such, is through education. And allowing intersex children to be who they feel they are, would be a great step in the right direction. It's too late for me, but hopefully the day will come when no intersex (and indeed trans) people will have to suffer the misery me and many others have gone through, due to decisions made to appease an ignorant society.

 

Thank you, Shale, for your input on this subject. You have hit the nail right on the head. I am what I am. Nobody can dispute that. However, almost everybody seems to want to put their own spin on everything that is as if they were all scientists. The unfortunate part about all of this is that most scientists that make these theories aren't in any way affected by these anomalies.

By saying that he doesn't understand the existence of gender, Ben is showing us that he has simply made no attempt to read about or look into this subject. As has often been stated, ignorance is no excuse. Especially in this computer age.

I have made an attempt to read through this thread through. Although Invisible Soul continues to tell her story, it seems to be going over Ben's head. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to run Ben down or insult him although I know it sounds that way. I just think that he should pay attention to how other people feel about/within themselves rather than what he feels about their situations.

Gender is very real. It has been established by many professionals and backed up by many ordinary persons. Saying it doesn't exist is like saying danger doesn't exist. You don't want to say that to the wrong person.

Wally/Erin

 

Some people just have their own ideas/views, and nothing will shift them. I did feel like everything I was saying was going over Ben's head, and he really wasn't taking any real notice of what I was saying. I just thought it was ironic as he was asking me to be "open minded", that was exactly what he was refusing to be, by sticking to his own ideas despite what I was saying. I feel female, I always have, and him questioning me feeling that gender is no better than people who think gender is always exclusively intertwined with your body sex. And there can't be any deviation from that.

Gender does exist, it's only gender stereotypes which are at least partly, a societal construct. There are differences between men and women, at least generally speaking. But most men have femininity to a greater, or lesser degree. And the same with women and masculinity. The only way in which I differ from common societal opinion about gender, is that I see the gender binary as being much wider than most people realise. I do see that in most cases, the gender binary is that narrow, and I believe in an ideal world, it would remain that way. However, that is not an absolute, and that is the fact that most either don't, or don't want to acknowledge. Just like you can get people born disabled, deaf, blind, conjoined twins etc...you can also get people who are born with a genetic/brain setup which is not in complete harmony with their physical sex. I think it's because most people have the impression etched in their minds that a person's gender cannot be in conflict with their outer body appearance. Because that is the way people are brought up to think, but I can't see this changing anytime soon. It will be difficult, because even I know that your gender and physical body SHOULD be intertwined. It's just that I know that is not always the case, the way most seem to think.

I think Ben is just ignorant about the subject, like most people ironically, just in a different way. He wasn't taking in what I was saying, because he didn't understand, or didn't wish to understand what I was saying. Although I would not wish my condition (or the trans one for that matter) on my worst enemy, I do think we have a unique insight into gender that most other people have no concept of. People generally criticise what they don't understand. Instead of trying to learn, and trying to understand. It's just easier to say "that's not normal!" or "that's wrong!", than to really try and understand why these people are the way are. Sadly, it's easier to remain ignorant, than it is to educate yourself on the subject.

 

Nothing's flying over my head. I'm not ignorant. I'm very well-read and somewhat experienced on the subject. I just come to a different conclusion, and am trying to talk it out to see if I can learn more.

 

I think it's a just confusion, basically. You say you understand there are differences between men and women. All that female is, is a different label for girl/woman. Male is just a label for men/boys. What you are actually talking about is femininity and masculinity, which are partly just gender stereotypes. The key thing that has to be seen here, is that gender and gender stereotypes are not the same thing.

 

I understand there are physical differences, which is commonly called "sex". "Gender" is supposedly a mental thing, and apparently dealing with feelings and behavior, how one prefers to look, things like that.

I personally can't understand the concept of "feeling male" or "feeling female". It never occurred to me to that anything other than my organs made me male or not male, and have no idea what it would mean for me to "feel male", in sync with my body, or "feel female" and out of sync. And since I know for a fact that any male and any female can feel, appear, and behave in any way, I don't have the faintest idea why someone would say their "gender" is one or the other. I percieve that there are stereotypes, but I percieve that stereotypes are utterly without objective basis... so the fuss is baffling to me.

I have yet to be convinced that there's any valid, objective reason to define what "gender", what "feeling masculine" or "feeling feminine" means. To give anyone a reason to say "I have a gender that's different from my sex, because of this" except this amorphous "feeling". To me, it's like if I went around saying that "I feel Martian inside. It's just this thing I felt since I was very small. Like, I always wanted to wear green, and hang out with the short kids. Martians are green and short, you see. I know that you're gonna say lots of humans wear green and are short, and that's true, but I just FEEL Martian!"

Explain this "femininity" to me, then. Without it being something stereotypical. Without naming something that some men experience/have.

 

:beatdeadhorse5:

Wow Ben, This same argument has gone on for five pages of this thread and I think it has been sufficiently explained many times over.

Personally, I think the use of "gender" versus "sex" is just semantics. Any old dictionary will likely say the two words are synonymous, with the exception that gender is also used in romance languages to distinguish masculine and feminine forms such as Roberto o Roberta.

What keeps coming up is this "stereotype" of masculine or feminine.

To me a sterotype is saying that black ppl are lazy, shiftless thieves and Asians are studious overachievers. Of course there are both in both but somehow the image is imbedded in the collective consciousness of populations.

Then there are cultural differences, like that African tribe where the men preen themselves and wear elaborate makeup that is feminine by our cultural standards but likely represents the masculine ideal in theirs.

Like I explained in one of the previous redundant posts, stereotypical masculine or feminine behavior is caused by the majority number of boys and girls, men and women behaving in certain ways. Yes, some of it is cultural, passed from father to son mother to daughter but much of it is determined by hormonal influences on our personality.

Males tend to be more aggressive and often less communicative than females. Of course there are wimpy male writers (whom we call effiminate) and there are female warriors (whom we call butch). They go against the "stereotype" which to me is another word that says the "norm."

Thousands of men have a penis and that is the "norm." Every once in a while a man will have a vagina or at least an undeveloped penis that goes against the "norm." (or vice versa).

See where this is leading - Again?

How can it be a man with a vagina or or a woman with a penis? Because of the overall gender that the person involved knows that they are, which goes against the physical manifestation of their body. This has been acknowledged since the first sex change in the 1950s.

So, I have sort of lost track of the original question but I'm sure it was answered sufficiently somewhere in the past five pages of this thread or it may never be answered to your satisfaction.

 

Shale, a lot of what you're saying goes straight to my point. There's nothing inherently feminine about makeup, because of this African culture you mention that thinks that's masculine... not to mention in the animal kingdom, when one sex is more colorful or flashy it's always the male. And so, I don't understand people saying that wanting to wear makeup and elaborate hair means they're of feminine gender. Ask Tommy Lee if he was "female inside". I'm just saying that if you think your gender is different from your sex, tell me how you know. And don't say something that it's not impossible or even abnormal for men, because then that doesn't prove anything.

And if you think "sex" and "gender" are interchangeable in a discussion about transgender theory, you really don't know anything about the subject. I know that you do know something, so I have no idea why you said that. Maybe the average person on the street thinks the words mean the same thing, but people who talk about the issues we're talking about make a distinction. If there weren't a distinction, sex change operations would not happen, people who identify as transgenders and transsexuals would not exist. I undertand that some think there's a distinction and how they describe that distinction (external sex, internal gender). But I think there's not a distinction, because I have never seen any evidence of "gender" as a concept different from sex, other than people say there is one... only I haven't heard them prove it.

 

I may not know the subject but I do know words.

When I said "Personally, I think the use of "gender" versus "sex" is just semantics. Any old dictionary will likely say the two words are synonymous, ..." I was looking at an old Websters that had the first definition of gender "1. sex"

Now MY dictionary (The American Heritage College Dictionary) doesn't say that but in def #2 it says "Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture."

Then there's my Taber's Cyclopedic Medical Dictionary, which has only one definition for gender; "The sex of an individual (i.e. male or female)."

But, we again digress into semantics here and I really hate to go looking thru and quoting dictionaries.

You originally asked a question about how to address a particular problem you had with relating to transexuals.

"But I don't think I really understand transgender. Only because I don't really think gender exists. I think gender roles, and gender identifiers, etc... it's all made up. It's not based on anything that's not subjective, anything that really means anything on an absolute level..."

People who did know the subject first-hand offered you advice, explanations and clarification when you could not grasp what they were telling you. It is now apparent that you will NEVER grasp anything more than that you don't really think gender exists.

Therefore, at this point I think you should take the first part of my last post to heart, instead of the words that followed.

:beatdeadhorse5:

 

Shale is right.

Gender and sex are synomous with each other. As I have stated before, female is really just another word for girl/woman, and male is just another word for boy/man. So if you feel like a girl, then you will identify as female, and vice versa. Femininity and masculinity are the behaviours which are attatched to each gender. Now, some of this is societally and culturally constructed, but not all of it is. This is so, because men and women's brains are wired differently, so it just stands to reason there are going to be differences there. Take me for instance. I am not physically capable of giving birth, but something inside me tells me that I SHOULD be able to do that. And not having that capability causes me deep sadness and distress. Same with periods, it's always seemed weird to me that I've never had one. Like my body is telling me that's what should be happening, and the fact it isn't is very perplexing to me. Logically, I know why those things aren't happening, but it's like my brain isn't computing that, it still feels like those things SHOULD be happening.

I think it's fair to say men do not have these feelings and thoughts, so that's one big difference right there. I am intersex, but I have heard some transwomen say they've had similar feelings to the ones I've described. There are definitely differences between the sexes other than just the physical, though there are definitely behaviours which are attatched to both genders which are purely stereotypes.

 

Well those are some common themes that seem to prevail among transgendered people. Like thankfully my will to have children is pretty non existent so this doesn't bother me much, but, if I did, I don't want to father a child, I want to mother a child. I can't make a baby like a female should be able to. It feels like you were kind of cheated out of the option. At the same time though there are plenty of genetic girls who can't have children for whatever reasons. Then of course the general body dysphoria, when I was young I wanted to grow up to have hips, breasts, soft skin, ect, what every young girl wants. I got chest hair, beard, muscles(well compared to arms and legs of a woman) and ect. Ew.

This came up in another thread the other day and I think this woman did a good job at explaining more of it

Which I can relate to. I generally like women, but the act of sex as a man with a woman can be distressing. It's like "oh god this feels like consensual rape" Everything is just wrong, even right down to instincts of it. When it comes down to it there's 2 ways humans have sex, to penetrate(men) and to be penetrated(women). And yes it's true, you can't use instances of say a woman using a strap on dildo or a man taking it in the rear because there's other circumstances, physical pleasure, kinks involved from basic instinct. And she's right about phantom sensations you can have. Even when I was younger and just started to masturbate I would try to picture what it would be like to have a vagina, to have something inside of it vs something around my dick. There's a problem when you have a mind set to be penetrated but the tools to do the opposite.

 

That is exactly how I feel. I never used to have an urge to become pregnant and have kids, but that's something that changed a while ago. Though I wouldn't say I had a burning desire to be a mother, though that's mainly because I don't think I'd make a very good one, and plus, knowing how horrible and cruel our world can be I'm not sure I'd want to bring a new person into the world anyway. I do feel cheated though. Because I still feel like I SHOULD have the capacity to give birth, and even if I never did so, that mere fact on it's own still hurts me a lot. I also have no desire to father a child. Being infertile anyway, that would also not be possible, but even if it was, and I had a burning desire to have a child, I would rather remain childless, if fathering a child was the only option available to me. Unless I could carry and bring a child into the world the way only a woman can, then I would not do it. Anything that doesn't feel natural to me, I wouldn't do.

Hence why I made a decision early on never to have sexual relations, or try to be in a relationship with anyone. While never having love in my life is very painful for me to live with at times, I still know I'm doing the right thing. Most men would not want me anyway, and even if they did, I have no desire to get physically close to anyone while my body is in it's current state.

And yes, there are some genetic girls who can't give birth, and some are born afflicted with this. I once had an arguement with 2 meatheads, who in arguing against transwomen actually being women, stated that if a female can't have a period or give birth, then they are not a real woman. When I levelled at them that some genetic females can't have periods or give birth, one attempted to backtrack, and say he'd never said that. But he had, so was already shown up for being a total ignoramus. The other guy still didn't budge, and said women who can't give birth "aren't women". What idiots!

And puberty, yes. When a transwoman hits puberty, she want's the same thing as other girls. Boobs, hips and all those other things that come with female puberty. But instead, they get secondary male physical characteristics, which some of those things, they'll be left with for life. I'm still in distress because of the physical male characteristics of my body, and I know I always will be. Now, logically, transwomen probably know why their bodies developed in a male way instead of a female one. But that doesn't stop the brain from tellling the person the reverse process (the female puberty) is the one that should have happened to their bodies. The only logical conclusion of this, is that the brain IS female, and can't compute what the body is doing, when it is acting in male ways.

 

Yo, god, where's my vagina. You gave me the damn instinct to be penetrated but gave me a pole instead.

Also, do something about this facial hair.

And, losing a few inches in height would hurt the cause at hand

Thx god,
TheMadcapSyd


Also, to be more serious on this topic, I've had sex in my dreams as a woman. Has this ever happened to non transgendered people? And more then once, I've had sex as a woman in my dreams more then I have as a man.

 

I also wish I was shorter...Im not tall, but Id still like to be a 2 or 3 inches shorter...and have less broad shoulders...and smaller hands and feet.

The facial hair is being dealt with, but that is a very painful, and long process. I'll be glad when it's over. And DON'T even get me started on my voice. I hate having to force it to sound female...The vagina...thats just obvious!

Even though I dont have the capacity to have sex as a woman, (at least not yet) any time I have thought about me having sex, it's ALWAYS been with me in a normal female body, with a man. I've never once fantasised about sex with me having male sex organs. The way I see it, my desires, fantasies, and needs are no different to that of any other heterosexual female. Just that unlike most women, I don't have the physical capacity to have any of those needs met.

 

I will never agree that gender and sex are the same. The sex of a person can often be seen, if that person allows it. It is defined by what is between your legs or your genetic make-up.

Gender is always present but it is not visible. I find myself wondering if Ben isn't related to Dr. John Money. You see, Dr. Money insisted throughout his life that you could give a child the sex organs that you decided s/he should have and raise that child in that gender. But this didn't always work. Sometimes the child knew as soon as they were old enough to think that his/her sex did not match his/her gender. This difference has been known to cause severe mental illness in some cases and suicide in others. Many people, myself included, have spent many years trying to live in their assigned or original sex only to eventually come to the conclusion that true happiness occurred by giving up and living in a style which comes naturally.

I was told when I was in my fifties by a medical specialist, a doctor that WCB didn't have to cover my injury because I was 47xxy. Although I appeared to be a male, it wasn't necessarily so because my body did not produce any male or female hormones. I soon started taking male hormones, testosterone. Some "male" characteristics developed - hair growth everywhere, my skin became much rougher, my sexual organs became bigger and more active, which didn't do anything for my marriage, I might add. But then it became apparent that I was also growing breasts. When told by the endocrinologist that they could easily be removed, I realized that I was very attached to them. I wanted no part of having them removed. In fact I also had a huge desire to wear clothing normally assigned to females. This was something that I had hidden for many years, afraid to tell anyone. But when I began to take testosterone, I could no longer deny these feelings. By society's standards I was acting "like a female". Not by choice. The psychiatrist defined the condition as "Gender Identity Dysphoria". And accordingly, the only cure was transitioning from male to female so that my sex would match my gender.

Ben, you can believe whatever you wish to believe. If you really are as well read as you claim to be you would be willing to admit that what is is.

Erin

 

Im not saying they are the same. But they are synonomous with each other, or they should be. Most people's gender is in harmony with their physical sex, meaning that generally speaking, the majority of the time, they are synonomous with each other. However, contrary to popular opinion, this is not an absolute, and sometimes, the gender of the person can be at odds with the person's physical sex. The easy way of explaining it, is this. Males and females have differences in brain structure. In MOST cases, the brain structure is congurent with the person's physical sex, and there isn't a problem. However, it has been shown that some people have a brain structure more congurent with the opposite sex, than to the one of which they were born. Seeing as it is the brain structure which is responsible for things like emotions, then it is this that is mainly responsible for the "gender" of the person. Gender SHOULD be synonomous with physical sex, and in most cases it is. But not always. The reason why gender is assigned purely on the basis of phyiscal sex, is because in most cases, the gender is harmony with the physical sex. And also of course, the misconception that gender is ALWAYS intrinsically intertwined with your outward sex anatomy. This is not always true though. The gender of the person, contrary to popular opinion, cannot be seen, Seeing as it is at least partly triggered by the brain. Which isnt an outward part of your body, and cannot be seen by the naked eye. The upshot of it is, a girl can be born with a penis, and a boy can be born with a vagina. This is rare, but it still does exist.

 

I think you just said what we have been saying. The reason I use gender in describing "same gender couples" because I don't like referring to "sex" as in "homosexual" because those two ppl may not even be having sex.

Again, it is semantic arguments and in English "sex" means more than sexual organs. It means fucking in many conversations. Therefore gender is ... well, less sexual in connotation.

This makes perfect sense - except to anyone who wants to argue otherwise.

 

I like your way of thinking, Shale.

 

to answer the original question -- there are differences between male and female brains. there's this region in the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis and it's bigger in men than in women. clinical studies have been performed posthumously on transsexuals studying that region in their brain and the results were --- for MTF's that region was the size comparable to biological females, and in one (i think it was one) FTM that they had that region was the size comparable to a biological male. it is now acknowledged that that region plays a role in gender identity. i think this answers the question why transsexuals cannot simply remain the gender they're born in (and just dress and act the opposite gender) but feel the need to be seen only as the gender they identify with and thus go through the surgeries. it's wired into the brain.

 

Yes, most narrow-minded people's advice to transsexuals is "stay how you were born". Not realising they most probably have some physical component of the opposite sex, even if it is just in the brain structure. It's like telling a woman who was born with all the right bits to accept being a man, and being treated like a man. It really is no different to that. The way I look at transsexuals is this. It's like having a robot that is built outwordly to perform one way, but programmed to act in the opposite way. Transwomen are physically made to be male, but their programming is the opposite of that. (female) And expects the rest of the body to be in line with the female mind, when it is built for the opposite purpose.