A Simple Fact

Totally out of context of this discussion but we definitely have NOT learned from slavery, it is still the third largest injustice in the world. Around 800,000 people are trafficked annually in modern day slave trade. But the persons responsible are manifestations of God that are just unaware of their true nature, right?... so really it's all good right?

But please excuse me everyone and resume on...

Just a touch on one of the realities of the physical plane...

EDIT: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU, Tsurugi Oni. Only wanted to mention this so please don't attach yourself to my post...

EDIT AGAIN: Some actually HAVE learned from slavery, but the point of my initial(ignorant) post was that it is still a HUGE problem.

alright i'm gonna leave this one for good now

 

It all depends on your underlying view of things - thats the main thing that seems to be coming out of this.

One way to look at it is that when the original divine consciousness descended to a certain level, it lost touch with its divine source and nature. Thus it became 'un-divine'. This is only a term - a term which exists solely on the level of mental relativities, as do all terms.

Nicole, of course, it is the veiled divine which has become everything, Self-forgetting on the part of the divine is necessary for the play, for the cosmic manifestation.
If I am God and want to create a universe, I have only myself from which to make it. The part of myself that becomes the material for the universe has by neccesity to forget that it is part of me.

As I said at the beginning, I don't like the bland assertion 'all is divine'. I see absolutely nothing divine in phenomena such as concentration camps or destruction of the natural environment. This is all conducted by negative forces who have completely lost touch with not only the divine, but even common sense.

Existence is obviously a property of all that exists - however, it is not an existence of perfect being. Ananada too is in everything, but only in a hugely distorted form. Consciousness is only present in living beings - it isn't to be found in minerals etc. In them, it has completely fallen asleep and become unconsciousness.

They say Jesus was a master, who we assume, had the full vision and consciousness of the divine - but he actually spent a lot of time in criticism of the un-divine things he saw all around him here in this world.
He wanted to re-script this movie.

I dare say it is possible to exclude the world from your consciousness, and move into a state of inner liberation and enlightenment where one is aware only of the absolute. Unfortunately, that leaves the world un-touched, un-changed. The next step might be to declare that it's all only an illusion anyway so it doesn't matter.....

The thing is to be able to see both the absolute perfection, and the intense imperfection in the cosmos simultaneously. At least, that's the way it seems to me.

 

I don't think it's your call to say who can post, that's for the moderators to decide.

It's like what Philuk said, nobody is born evil. They're just ignorant towards Good/Truth. It's a lack of goodness which is seen as evil. Many people who grow up without love cannot show love to others, and so we see that as a negative. But the "negativity" isn't an entity within itself, only a lack of love. You give a hardened criminal an Ecstasy pill and all of a sudden he's a great guy, because it forces him to love.

Ignorance is part of the process of experiencing the divine. That's the giant play we call Life, and without ignorance we couldn't have life as we know it. It's like buying a new video game and putting in the cheat codes, it directly undermines the design of the game.

I'm not saying slavery is okay, but everything that happens is supposed to happen (within the context of Life). Before we were able to make surplus crops the idea of surplus was not even realized by the consciousness. Then once we do, we have to find a way to deal with it (economics). We make economic systems to deal with these (and we haven't even solved that problem yet) but it's all part of the journey of life (To find Peace/Truth/Love/Joy/Unity). From microbes to galaxies there is order, and although we can't see it all is perfect. Millions of species went extinct and they all didn't want it to go that way.

Mass murderers are also divine, but you guys aren't taking into account Mind. Everyone has the potential to realize the divine, although Mind + Physical Laws is what may keep a lot of people from realizing it within this lifetime. People who constantly love condition themselves to see in that way, as do people who constantly hate. A meth addict may always be sketched out but try to not be. Mass murderers may never realize peace or joy, but that doesn't mean they're not divine. They just haven't cultivated mind to reflect divinity.

Dude, the new theory that you propose is the exact same as the one you're fighting against, let me explain.

God becoming consciousness = God becoming ignorant of himself in his fullness (this sets up the Cosmic Play in which we can act, learn, evolve). So if ignorance is initiated by divinity, how is it in any way NOT divine?

That's what Nirvana is, and how the yogi's talk about the perfection of everything upon enlightenment. Because everytime you think something is bad, you are not reflecting divinity. That's why it takes forever and a half to condition your mind to see life this way.

 

But such forgetting truth does not make it untrue. If I were to forget that my glasses are on my nose, that does not change the fact that they are there.

What would that be? I don't understand what you mean by "existence of perfect being".
I think of existence much as light. Light falls on the beautiful and the ugly and equally gives visibility to both and so too the divine existence gives existence to all things.

It is present in minerals and "inert" objects, only they don't have the equipment for its expression. Just because a wire does not glow like a bulb does not mean that electricity is not in it.
And anyway in my post I was referring to consciousness manifest in all living beings, even the evil ones.

That's fine. Many great masters do. But they don't become involved in it, and they don't for one moment forget that it is only a movie and nothing more.

[/quote]The thing is to be able to see both the absolute perfection, and the intense imperfection in the cosmos simultaneously. At least, that's the way it seems to me.[/quote]

Yes. We have arrived.

 

I mean existence without imperfections such as we now experience. Things like ignorance, death etc.

But so what? If they're 'evil' then they are a problem conscious or not.


[/quote]The thing is to be able to see both the absolute perfection, and the intense imperfection in the cosmos simultaneously. At least, that's the way it seems to me.[/quote]

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I'm glad you think so. Personally I'm regretting starting this thread, which as usual actually gets no-one anywhere.

 

It's not divine precisely because it's not consciously the divine. I'd say that one of the characteristics of divinity is full self consciousness.

If you were a master, or if you were not, you'd have to wear a blindfold not to see the evil in the world, or be pilled up on something a lot more powerful than mdma.
In fact, you'd have to be insensitive to an extreme degree.
Anyway, that's my own opinion. I don't actually expect to convince anyone else.

 

Bill, I am not for a moment saying we should ignore the presence of evil or denying it in any way. All I am saying is that there is a standpoint from which it can be transcended and recognized as being also a play of the divine. In that play you play your part (and it is improv, so you can play any part you like) but don't forget that its a play, and so don't let your mind lose sight of the divine.
You said it yourself, very beautifully:

 

Hare Krishna !

BBB : " Personally I'm regretting starting this thread, which as usual actually gets no-one anywhere."


Dear Andrew,

Why ? It's all a wonderful game of playing Good, Bad and Ugly
played by the three .....Divine, Un-divine and anti-Divine. Everything that we say, do or think goes into playing a small role in this play of "Divine Game".

It is a continuous churning process of changing un-divine to anti-divine and then to divine. Then the divine goes back to the Ocean of Consciousness and becomes one with it.

Even your beautiful thread, "A Simple Fact" is not outside this Game. Who knows, a simple sentence or word contributed in the posts of this thread probably has started this process of evolution in some of us... the pawns representing un-divine, anti-divine and divine ! Everything, every moment, every joy and sorrow, all creations and destructions are party to this wonderful Game.

Dear friend, please cheer up, we are all playing in this Game, nobody is excluded. Please give us some more threads like this. These days, I enjoy reading the posts more than contributing (Selfish.. ).

With lots of love,

Kumar.

 

Hare Krishna !

The great Yogi, Rishi Aurobindo wrote the following :

"Men do not know themselves and have not learned to distinguish the different parts of their being ; for these are usually lumped together by them as mind, because it is through a mentalised perception and understanding that they know or feel them; therefore they do not understand their own states and actions, or, if at all, then only on the surface. It is part of the foundation of yoga to become conscious of the great complexity of our nature, see the different forces that move it and get over it a control of directing knowledge. We are composed of many parts each of which contributes something to the total movement of our consciousness, our thought, will, sensation, feeling, action, but we do not see the origination or the course of these impulsions; we are aware only of their confused and pell-mell results on the surface upon which we can at best impose nothing better than a precarious shifting order.

The remedy can only come from the parts of the being that are already turned towards the Light. To call in the light of the Divine Consciousness from above, to bring the psychic being to the front and kindle a flame of aspiration which will awaken spiritually the outer mind and set on fire the vital being, is the way out. "

( From the book, LETTERS ON YOGA , VOL - 1 )

Find any relevance ?

Love,

Kumar.

 

Hare Krishna !

The great Yogi, Sri Aurobindo, added the following in the same book :

" Consciousness is not, to my experience, a phenomenon dependent on the reactions of personality to the forces of Nature and amounting to no more than a seeing or interpretation of these reactions. If that were so, then when the personality becomes silient and immobile and gives no reactions, as there would be no seeing or interpretative action, there would therefore be no consciousness. That contradicts some of the fundamental experiences of yoga, e.g., a silent and immobile consciousness infinitely spread out, not dependent on the personality but impersonal and universal, not seeing and interpreting contacts but motionlessly self-aware, not dependent on the reactions, but persistent in itself even when no reactions take place. The subjective personality itself is only a formation of consciousness which is a power inherent, not in the activity of the temporary manifested personality, but in the being, the Self or Purusha."

Find any relevance ?

Love,

Kumar.

 

Hare Krishna!

Sri Aurobindo, one of the greatest Yogis on this earth, further went on to add the following in his book, "LETTERS ON YOGA, VOL - 1" :

" Consciousness is a reality inherent in existence. It is there even when it is not active on the surface, but silent and immobile; it is there even when it is invisible on the surface, not reacting on outward things or sensible to them, but withdrawn and either active or inactive within; it is there even when it seems to us to be qite absent and the being to our view unconscious and inanimate.

Conscious is not only power of awareness of self and things, it is or has also a dynamic and creative energy. It can determine its own reactions or abstain from reactions; it can not only answer to forces, but create or put out from itself foces. Consciousness is Chit but also Chit Shakti.

Consciousness is usually identified with mind, but mental consciousness is only the human range which no more exhausts all the possible ranges of consciousness than human sight exhausts all the gradations of colour or human hearing all the gradations of sound - for there is much above or below that is to man invisible and inaudible. So there are ranges of consciousness above and below the human range, with which the normal human has no contact and they seem to it unconscious, - supramental or overmental and submental ranges."

Find it relevant and helpful ?

Love,

Kumar.

 

GDkumar, wonderful post. Hits the nail on the head, and also pertains to exactly what I'm going through right now in my life.

I'm eternally grateful .

 

Thanks for your kind words. And for the very illuminating quotes from Sri Aurobindo.
I hope you are right and that some good comes of all this. My worry is that perhaps I am actually causing confusion for some.

As you know well, Sri Aurobindo and the Mother's work is quite complex, and I think it's hard to come to an understanding of one part of it without an overview of the work as a whole. Since I can't give that, as it is something one has to aquire over time and through experience etc, I wonder if I wouldn't do better to frame things differently, and try to keep it more simple.

But maybe you are right after all, and I should just cheer up...I have been under a bit of pressure lately.

Anyway, there is something I want to post here which is related to how the undivine forces came into being. It is from a commentary on 'Savitiri', Sri Aurobindo's epic poem, by Sweet Mother. I beleive Mother originally learned of this tradition from Max Theon, with whom She studied occultism as a young woman before Her meeting with Sri Aurobindo.

"There is an ancient tradition which describes the creation as done by some first emmanations of the Supreme Mother, who were four emmanations.
In the sense and feeling of their supreme power, they cut connection with their Origin and became independent.
And then, these emmanations, being separated from their Origin, entered into darkness.
The first one was Consciousness, Consciousness in Light, and by cutting himself from his Origin, he went down and down towards unconsciousness.
The second was Bliss, and turned into suffering.
The third was Truth, and turned into falsehood.
The fourth was Life, and turned into death.
This happened after they came down to the Vital level.

When this was seen, it was decided that some second emmanations would be made to repair the mistake of the first; and the second emmanations were the Gods."

 

Bill, this has been a good thread and has led to epiphanies for at least two people who have been part of the discussion, so it was good and healthy.
As I write this, I am filled with a deep love for you and for the others on this thread. You are all such wonderful, sacred spirits with so much truth and beauty in you. God bless you all, my beloved friends. God bless you all.

 

It's so nice of you to say that Bhaskar

I hope God wil bless you also.

 

Hare Krishna!

Dear Tsurugi Oni,

Friend, thanks for your kind words.

I pray for showers of Lord's Grace, Compassion and Blessings upon you.

Love,

Kumar.

 

Hare Krishna !

From BBB.....


"There is an ancient tradition which describes the creation as done by some first emmanations of the Supreme Mother, who were four emmanations.
In the sense and feeling of their supreme power, they cut connection with their Origin and became independent.
And then, these emmanations, being separated from their Origin, entered into darkness.
The first one was Consciousness, Consciousness in Light, and by cutting himself from his Origin, he went down and down towards unconsciousness.
The second was Bliss, and turned into suffering.
The third was Truth, and turned into falsehood.
The fourth was Life, and turned into death.
This happened after they came down to the Vital level.

When this was seen, it was decided that some second emmanations would be made to repair the mistake of the first; and the second emmanations were the Gods."
......

Dear BBB,

That's wonderful! Nice to read but again it comes to my thought that Supreme Mother started this Game. She knew everything and all well, yet the emanations (From Her) were given the choice of becoming independent and separated from their origin.

Now to correct/repair the intentional mistakes another set of emanations were made in the form of Gods, Avatars, Mahapurush, yogis, etc.

Second emanations are to work as Doctors to treat the injured (Physical, mental, deprived etc) ones in the Game.

However, it's all good, all in the Game. Then why do we cry and laugh ? Let there be 'ananda' only, Ananda of watching this Lila and let us live in and with that 'Ananda'.

Love,

Kumar.

 

Hare Krishna!

Love for Bhaskar and all others.

Kumar.

 

I have a bit more on this in a book 'Sri Aurobindo and the Mother' by Kireet Joshi. It's out on loan at present, but hopefully I will retrieve it over the next few days, when I'll post up some more.

 

And yet many people died of heat strokes today, suffered extreme sun burns, and cursed the sun with parched lips as they helplessly dehydrated.
There is nothing that is solely good, or solely bad, not even God, because God is all these things and yet none. I believe, the purpose is not to create "good" for other humans to endlessly wallow in, but to establish the most ideal setting for finding God. I think for some, perhaps finding God means being good. But I also think for some, finding God means being bad.