Abraham muslim or jew/ Akhenaten founder of Judaism?

Abraham the father of all prophets was a Monotheist, he believed in ONLY one God, so he couldnt be a christian. He didnt receive the law of Moses or of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon all Allah's prophets). We cant categorize him in the nowadays terms. He was a monotheist.

 

Then what is the nature of the covenant? The jews would be taken out of their suffereing, only to suffer on their way to the promised land? Yet what about the previous patriarches? The covenant is a covenant to suffer to this Gods will. Yet they've always been suffering hardships. Stop playing dumb. You know what I meant. This is why Israel was created.

In the play Fiddler on the roof Reb Tevia or whatever even says to the Rabbi Why must God make me suffer so, and make me miserable? The rabbi responds by saying "isn't that what it means to be a Jew"?

In the play its meant for humor but its true.

Yea and where did semitic cultures all descend from?
Shem who after the flood was given the mideast.
History says wherever the language went, the funny thing is IT NEVER LEFT THE MID EAST. Syria, Arabia, Northeast Africa.

Power hungry not good. I just meant the sith had a different interpretation of the force and it only needed 2 people practicing the force at the time, instead of countless jedi.

Yea what about respect?

 

How do you know that Abraham was a monotheist? How do you know that he existed at all?

The covenant binds God to the Jewish people and the Jewish people to God. Both must hold up their side of the contract. The Jewish side is to live by the mitzvot.

They were not yet ready to enter the land.

What about them?

Well, there is a possible interpretation that suggests the suffering servant in Isaiah is the Jewish people. But that's not what you mean. If the Jewish people is the suffering servant, then it is their suffering which redeems humanity. Of course, I find this interpretation a tad too triumphalist for my tastes.

Fiddler on the Roof is not a theological work, and it's certainly not canon.

Sorry to tell you, but Mesopotamia pre-dates Akhenaten, by 1000s of years.

Please don't quote mythical history at me. I'm not interested in it.

What about it?

 

Hellopeople,

Akhenaten was the first known man in historybooks, and agreed upon by scholars to have initiated the people of Egypt into a monotheism.

Biblical knowledge is not truth, as the Dauer has explained many times.

Therefore the Hebrews are not historically the first to have a monotheism, even though most semitic tribes had a henotheism anyway.

Research Moses and Monotheism by sigmund Freud, and Out of Egypt by Ahmed Osman.

You love hearing these words come out don't you. I DONT KNOW. Ill go by the records that the orthodox recognizes, that the mainframe of all of Judaisms past takes as truths.

Yea live by commandments of an unproven god, that during the exodus most people went back to the pagan golden calf worship. The covenant is a covenant about submitting to gods will. Therefore they must suffer it is god's will, this is their excuse for The slavery of Egypt, the Babylonian Exile, and the holocaust.

You just proved me right. Akhenaten did not practice a henotheism. He created a monotheism, Jews practiced the heno only after him.

Don't even tell me Rabbis and priests aren't more respected in the community.

What do you not beleive dude?

Cuz I can't find you a wikipedia link with the secret doctine of the Egyptian schools of the elite? Christ ive been looking for that forever. Its not REVEALED ITS KEPT A SECRET. People don't want it to be known. It will change the fabric of culture and history and our relationships to god and religion.

 

This is bad advice. Sigmund Freud was not an egyptologist. Ahmed Osman is a radical Egyptologist, unbalanced. Try the links on this page instead (sampling multiple sites will ensure the most balanced review of the topics):

http://www.egyptology.com/reeder/links.html

If you're going by the record that the Orthodox accept, then the entire written Torah and the Oral Torah (which is contained within the mishna and applied throughout the mishna and gemara) were received on Sinai, and Abraham was a monotheist who believed in an entirely abstract God. And it's not what all of Judaism's past takes as truth. Beliefs evolve and change over time. You just want to be able to say that there is a traditional Jewish belief which completely fits with what you say without conflicting with it, which there isn't. Anyway, you'll note that I wasn't quoting you. I was responding to someone else.

According to the Torah, God was proven. A miracle in Hebrew is in fact a sign. The red sea was such. The ten plagues were such. The miracles that guided the Hebrews through the wilderness... And, all of the Hebrews gathered heard the beginning of the 10 Commandments. It was too much for them and Moses went up alone. That was before they decided to worship a calf.

So far, so good. Deuteronomy clearly follows the structure of a Hittite Vassal Treaty.

Here, you made a leap. Submitting to God's will has nothing to do with suffering. One of the mitzvot is to love your neighbor as yourself. Another is to care for the widow and orphan. There are others that make sure the poor will have food. Where do you get the suffering from? Is it because it denies hedonism? And who is the "they" that you refer to? Certainly it is not the Jewish people.

There is an issue of traditional theology which says there is punishment for straying from the mitzvot, but this has nothing to do with being chosen to suffer. And in the real world, it is those who have followed the mitzvot most closely who have been targetted more, because they were the ones who would not assimilate.

How did I prove you right?

My date was only to prove that there was a separate culture in the Middle East before Akhenaten was a pharoah, thus the suggestion that the people who populated Mesopotamia came from Egypt and were thus influenced by Akhenaten is not fact. It is just another one of your beliefs.

Priests aren't treated any differently than anyone else. They really have a very minor role in rabbinic Judaism anyway. Rabbis are basically scholars. Judaism is a meritocratous religion that places emphasis on religious learning. Depending on the community, in some places the rabbi doesn't get much respect at all. In some places he does. It really depends from place to place, on the community and their relationship with their rabbi. But it's a respect that must be earned. A rabbi who has been with a community for a long time is bound to get more respect that one who has been there for a short time. And of course it is the community who controls the rabbi's contract. The only situation that is different is the role of the rebbe within the hasidic community, which is a fairly modern institution.

There are other religious occupations within the community. There is the ritual slaughterer or shochet, the scribe or sofer, the chevra kadisha which is a volunteer group that cares for the dead before their funeral (not as common outside of Orthodox communities), the hazzan or cantor (not found in all communities), teachers.

And of course, there's really nothing that a rabbi can do that another Jew couldn't do, except make a halachic ruling, which isn't much of an issue outside of Conservative and Orthodox Judaism. According to Jewish law, for instance, any Jew can conduct a marriage, but we follow the law of the land on this issue. The average Jew can lead services, give a d'var Torah, read from the Torah, etc. Rabbis are not considered closer to God, intermediaries, or anything like that. The same is true for kohanim and leviim.

If you cannot find proof of something, this is not proof of it. You do not need to defend your beliefs to me. They are your beliefs and I respect that. But you're not going to win me over by telling me that you can't prove your case because the proof is being concealed. Anyway, I'm not fond of proselytizers, particularly of their behavior.

 

No he was an 18th dynasty Pharoah, and the father of Tutankhamen.

Not the first leader of Egypt, the first king of Egypt went by the name of Narmer or something like that, but sometimes is just referred to as Scorpion. This is the origin of the Scorpion king crap. Hes thought mostly to be myth but who knows. Theres no solid fact about him.

Akhenaten was called a heretic, because he was the first Jesus Christ.

He wanted to create a one world empire, of peace and non-violence. Worshipping science, and this god the Aten. Which is the powers of heat and light and their importance in the creation of the galaxy, and life on planet Earth. It is the only god worthy of worship he thought. The priests of the time were angry at him kicking them out of their high positions, and revealing their secret knowledge of science, and mathematics, and mind control. He showed the gods of the past were only archetypes of the human experience.

I went a step further and related him to Judaism, review this entire thread for bits and pieces its too much to summarize.

There is a definite relation between these two gods Yahweh and Aten if only
it is the fact they are Gods ruling in a monotheism, to their beleivers.

Ahmed Osman and myself believe there is a definite connection. There is no doubt that there is. Perhaps Akhenaten copied the Hebrews, perhaps Moses was related to Akhenaten. Perhaps the Hebrews only retold old stories of Egypt, with their own Ethnocentricity. Then took this idea of a one god and made it fitting to their own people.

The dauer thinks he is a super jew, and thats all there is to it.

HE cannot except this theory which makes perfect sense.

Well then if you don't beleive Abraham and Moses existed wheres the proof of the miracles? There is none, proving once again Yahweh is a mind control machine though up to gain proseperity and steal the slaves out of Egypt.
They needed a mass of people to follow this idea. Since the Semitic tribes were always henotheistic, then it suited them perfectly.

Whoever was behind it who knows. They put the attributes of Enlil, a Sumerian slave god, exactly the same as what the god of the monotheisms would evolve into with the Muslim version of Allah. Complete submission to god's will.

This is a fine way to live, I just beleive monotheism did not originate with these ideals, and only was a god of light power.
He worshipped a god that would be recognized as a worthy supreme power to modern science today.

The power of light that allows us to see, and feeds the plants. Then the power of heat that has allowed our bodies to shape as well as all life and made planet Earth an eden for the life process.

Not a god of myth and legends that no one even agrees upon anymore, and has caused more wars in his name than he could ever do good.

Im not attacking Judaism directly because I beleive it at least carries on its ethics and traditions. The god that Yahweh has become, the god of Christians and Allah of the Muslims. Gods of pure destruction in modern times. Even though they do not mean to be, people can interpret these doctrines in any way and transform them.

A god of heat and light can issue no commandments, it has no thinking and moral conciousness. Therefore any act you make could not be justified with paradise or some shit.

Akhenaten had the ideals for a perfect system. A theistic communism based on peace and love as the only laws of the aten.

The people looked to the king, he providing in praise and glory of the aten a political system and economy that would work. He wanted to rid the world of violence. This is why when the priests of Ra destroyed his followers and temple, he had no army to fight htem with. He was a Ghandi of his time, then his legacy was destroyed his wife Nefertiti killed, he was banished, his son was a puppet king, untill he was hit with a blunt object and was killed. Then within the span of 40 years Ramses the I one of the most ruthless and war loving, bloodthirsty, racist, human sacrifice demanding Pharoahs set the stage for the 19th dynasty.


The dauer, knows alot about Judaism. I cannot prove him wrong, because he does not beleive in the mythical history that would connect all of this. Yet props to him for his staying with me on this.

I never said that. I think the fertile crescent cultures were around almost 1000 years before anyone even migrated to Egypt. This is where my beleifs in the alien annunaki come into play but we can leave that out of it.

I don't beleive anyone pre-exodus was influenced by Akhenaten. I just beleive this was a truth known at the time of this scientific power of heat and light, and a photon particle grid existing as the matrix grid connecting everything in the physical world. This was a truth at the time, hidden from the mainstream taught to man by extraterrestrials. This is the origin of hierarchy, the origin of cities, and the origin of man thinking of himself as a demi-god. It connects the Bible, history, and the legends of Tyrants such as King Nimrod, and Gilgamesh. Who according to the bible and Sumerian records, were both 1/3 man 2/3 god.

 

I think who is a super jew?

It doesn't make sense to the majority of the people on this board, or in the world. You say it makes perfect sense to you because subjectively, for you, it does make sense. No matter how many times you say it makes sense, it's not going to change the facts.

I don't believe there were actually miracles, but if you're accepting the biblical narrative, then you're accepting that there were in fact miracles which proved God's existence.

This is a perfect example of how you make many and great assumptions, jumping from point A to point Z, without any facts to back you up.

The mythical history does not back you up, because according to the mythical history, the whole people initially received revelation from God on Sinai. Also, there were the ten plagues, the splitting of the sea, the voice from the bush, God hardening pharoah's heart, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire in the wilderness, the time that the earth opened up and swallowed Korach and his followers, etc. The mythical history does not support you. It does not matter whether I believe in the mythical history or not. It still doesn't support you. Saying it supports you does not make it support you. A close reading clearly illustrates that.

 

Not at all.

I know Im just proposing it.

I am.

As for the annunaki relations, those explain everything from creation (genetic engineering) to the deluge. They were obviously copied from the Enuma Elish, and other local Semitic stories of creation and of the great flood. Containing all the episodes of God men and other beasts created in this ante-deluvian period.

The Akhenaten relationship to the events depicted in Exodus was what I was after, as you addressed correctly.

They were a well thought up plan of diversion using the knowledge of geology and the area they were to be passing through. They were the first guerilla warfare using geological, natural, and biological warfare. Due to their advanced knowledge of science passed down in the mystery schools.

1. natural result of the prolonged warmth of the region, starting with the lower Nile with Akhenaten had been familiar with living in this region during his exile. He introduced a strain of Pfiesteria algae, brought from this lower region near the Nile Delta, that produces effects similar to red tide. Introducing them to the people who would've encountered this "plague" or scientific trick, had they seen the natural growth during the warm months that tends to occur.

2. The frogs were actually toads, whos eggs were not eaten by the now dead fish from the red tide like effects of this algae that was I would suggest manually introduced to a portion of the river that had never come in contact with it. Or perhaps transplanted in mass quantities from another body of water.

3. could refer to any small insect species for the gnats, no need for speculation its obviously a result of the first 2. Its even said that Pharoahs magi could imitate the first 2, but not the third.

4. the flies followed in suit with the first change in the entire ecosystem with the introduction of the algae. Showing an advanced knowlege of biology and biodiversity.

5. The cattle were obviously directly poisoned, or else drank some of the toxic algae corrupting the river system. The humans drank from the wells, that were for some reason untainted. Remember that part?

6. By plague 6 humans started to feel the effects from the loss of fish and cattle, started getting hungry and the supply caused them to eat obviously of sick animals and interact more, thus causing this toxic effect to be spread to humans causing boils.

7. Lebanons been hit with cold weather before, it wouldn't be unheard of to see hail strike DOWN.
Finally a break from that one little transplant of toxic algae into the freshwater system of the nile.

8. The locusts came in no greater of a number than usual, just with all the sick humans and diseased animals crops were all thats left. This was exagerrated obviously. Although its not uncommon for devastation swarms of locusts to attack the area
In 1968, one of the most terrible plagues in recorded history struck the ancient kingdoms of Egypt, the Sudan, Ethiopia, Somaliland, and Eritrea. Five Sudanese provinces with a total of more than 200,000 square acres were infested with giant swarms of hopping, flying, chirping insects… Poor farmers watched helplessly as the sky turned black with clouds of flying locust. Literally millions of the hungry pests settled down on fields and trees, devouring everything in sight…
(Cornell, 1972)


9. A desert sandstorm causing injury to the eye to go outside. Not darkness as much as the
"inability to see"

10. death to the first born, obviously a terrorist act, mixed with the result of the Elitist Egyptians nourishing the wealthy first. Causing them to come in contact with the disease ridden water, cattle, or locust defaecated grain.

So obviously Akhenaten had a copy of the Farmer's Almanac (which was invented during the Agricultural Revolution in Sumeria by the way), and chose a perfect year to launch this transplant of red algae into the fresh waters of the nile. He obviously did not act alone.

The splitting of the sea also occured during this draught season, where the REED Sea became walkable, through a very narrow strip. Pharoahs men unfamiliar with the turf, took the northern route whereas moses led them south and through this small strip of muddy terrain, obviously shown to him by Akhenaten who had lived out there during his exile.

The burning bush was only a clever expression.
Manna were mushrooms, who seemed to appear overnight.

Familiar with this terrain they were led on a geological easter egg hunt.

A carefully orchestrated plan, timed with perfect natural events.

Wanna keep going? I got logical explanations for everything.

 

Your language suggests you're more than just proposing it.

If you accept that there were miracles proving God's existence, then why did you say earlier that there were not? And doesn't that refute your thesis entirely?

The hail was mixed with fire. How do you explain that? And how do you explain that the hail did not fall where the Hebrews were at all, but only in other places? Again, a close reading rather than a cursory one is harder to explain.

According to the mythical history, it was not a terrorist act. An angel of death came upon the Egyptian first born (and only the first born), even the poorest Egyptian first born, and spared all of the Jewish first born who had put the blood on their doorposts. That is the mythical history, which you are now denying. It also all happened at this moment. It wasn't something that had been happening. It happened on one night. The mythical history does not agree with you.

According to the mythical history, the sea split when moses raised his staff. Up until that time it was not split. There is even a midrash that says at that time it did not split, and only split when a man named Nachson walked into the water up to his nose. According to the Torah, it also collapsed on top of the Egyptians. Again, you are diverging from the mythical history.

That is not what the mythical history says, nor what is implied by the context. If you are a shephard out with your sheep, and you see a bush that is consumed in flame but does not burn up, you go check it out. Again, you diverge from mythical history. You can't claim to be going by mythical history and then just write things off when they don't work for you.

How do you explain that there was exactly enough for each person, and if he took more than he could eat it went bad? How do you explain that on Shabbat, each person was able to gather a double portion the day before, which would not go bad, so that he would have enough on Shabbat? How do you explain that there was none to be found on Shabbat? How do you explain that at the moment they arrive in Gilgal and start eating grain regularly, the manna no longer appears? How do you explain that, for a people with this as their staple, they were able to function? Stop building your case on cursory readings. Look closely at what you're trying to make a case about before you try to make one. Manna was a miracle too.

You did not address the ground swallowing up Korach or the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire in the wilderness. I also want to add the entire people witnessing the revelation at Sinai.

 

Not at all. I never actually said proving God's existence. Thats what you said, I just beleive the mythical history happened, and that these miracles were just that. Yet there is also a scientific explanation to it. The knowledge of a perfect year and season, and a close watch on the climate and geology of the area.

Lightning.

The Hebrews were gone.

An army of Jinn harnessed using the Solomon Seal, the real power of the Magen David. Not a silly emblem on a sheild. An incantation, the muslims take as literal history of the Suleymon, or Solomon, and that he finished his temple with the help of 1000 elemental beings known as Jinn. The origin of Genie.

You called this new age, its fact that the Solomon Seal was an occult symbol with the power to harness Jinn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn#Jinn_in_Islam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_Solomon, for your control. Its in Goetia, its in the Medieval texts of freemasonry referring to Solomon. Its not unbeleivable compared to God doing all this. Why not an elemental being? Does this scare you? Simple the forerunners of Solomon had knowledge of these incantations, obviously smuggled out of the mystery schools of Egypt alone with the ark of the covenant. Perhaps Akhenaten had power of these Jinn? perhaps moses did. Perhaps the Jinn built the pyramids as is the folk legend in Cairo even nowadays.

The blood red showed them whos soul they could not steal.

Now this mythical history does agree with me when looked at from that point of view.

Only explaining that which they could not explain in its entirety.
They waded, when the Egyptians got to that route they sunk in the mud and the water came in and drowned them.

I said I beleive in the mythical history that the exodus took place. I didn't actually say I beleived all those clever ways of saying natural occurences unexplainable at the time. Light a damn bush on fire.

Common among fungus.

Different strain.
Didn't go looking to pick shrooms perhaps Gilgal was out of their natural growing range, seeing as they were lead on a pre-ordained path by an advanced Alchemist Akhenaten, and his apprentice moses.

Homemade Quicksand pit.

A pillar of fire, just refers to a column shape.
Anything could make a giant pillar then light it on fire.
The pillar of cloud, alchemy obviously the first smog machine.

Throw some burning cannabis inside the Tabernacle. They're all baked out of their skulls, the oldest mind control trick in the book.
People would've agreed with anything. You sure about this though, because it doesn't say the people saw God hand the Torah to moses on tablets. They just saw the revelation. Obviously a spectaculer event pre-planned.

 

If it was lightning it would have said lightning. This is specifically fiery hail stones. How do you explain that. And the Hebrews were not gone. They were still in the land when this happened. But it didn't effect them. Stop going based on a cursory reading, look at the text, and answer based on what the text actually says.

So now, in order to defend your theory, you're going beyond even rational scientific explanations and inventing occult explanations as they suit you.

Both are unbelievable. But this whole crazy theory you've just invented is even more unbelievable because there is not one shred of evidence in the text. Also, not the article on the seal of solomon says it belongs to medieval legend, and note that Solomon is disconnected from a theoretical Moses figure by a remarkable span of time.

The text doesn't even hint at them wading into the water, while the Egyptians get stuck. It suggests a miraculous event, a supernatural event, a sign of God's power. Saying that the waters parted for them so they could cross is not an explanation of how the waters were low. It's an explanation of supernatural phenomena.

So in other words what you're saying is that you only understand it in the ways in which it agrees with you. Clearly you're willing to accept supernaturalism, as you accept the possibility of an army of jinn at someone's command. So it must simply be that this particular text is not your text of choice, or theory of choice, and you will only say that it is true when it agrees with you, and when it doesn't, it is wrong. Is that about right?

It's common for fungus that there be exactly enough for each person?

So are you saying that most of the week there is one strain of mushroom, but one day a week there is a completely different strain (and on this day the other strain is nowhere to be found) while on another day it is impossible to find any mushrooms at all? How does that make any sense?

The problem with saying that they didn't go looking for manna at Gilgal, or that it wasn't available in that place, is that when they reached there is when grain became available. All of a sudden manna no longer was available, when they have other food to eat.

This doesn't fit with the description. First of all, the glory of YHWH appears before the whole congregation. Second, the ground opens up underneath the place where they had been dwelling, which had been solid a moment before, and swallowed them, their families, and all of their belongings.

It is fire in the shape of a pillar. And how do you explain it guiding them?

Where do you see any suggestion in the text of alchemy?

Ex 19:9. Moses is told to call the people near so they can hear God speaking. 19:11. God says He will come down in the sight of all the people. This then happens in the later verses. See also Deut 4:12-13.

Now, based on the descriptions of the event in surrounding passages, how can you say that it was planned?

 

Seems we've reached a stalemate.

Theres so much evidence dude. Ive presented it all too you. You still are asking for a middle school history book definition of things. I dunno what to say.

Do you agree as evolution states, man migrated from the fertile crescent and Northeast Africa?

Do you agree that history books present Ancient SUmeria as the first culture of western civ.

Do you see the connection between the annunaki, and all the other mythologies that came after them, as the ethnocentricity and times changed during their migrations?

Do you agree that Akhenaten had a god of advanced knowledge for his time?

Do you agree that Judaism and the Egyptian civilizations were in touch by the 18th dynasty?

Yes is this not what the ancient Israelites did?

The solomon seal was the origin of the Star of David. You have to admit this.
It makes sense.

Watch the history channel, they explain how the exodus took place, and the reed sea being crossed during a draught, and a misdirection towards the south end that was crossable. Only to fill in only hours after them.

No to go bad.

So I have no explanations to your assault on the rest.
This is our stalemate.

 

Abraham was definately a Muslim. To back to the origin half of the thread.

The torah wasn't revealed so he can't be a Joo.

He lived in submission to god, therefore he was a muslim.

The true enlil worship as yahweh and allah is Islam.

Israel should not exist, it is only a beacon for an occult secret society. That is waiting for a new King David, and to rebuild Solomons Temple. Then fake a messianic event, and fullfill all those fake prophecies. Written in the dark in ancient times, known that if they went underground. The future of the world would be theres for the taking, forcing people to submit to this false God. Masked under the guise of the Aten.


Do you agree that Zionism is not a Jewish ideal?
And after the Babylonian exile, the reason the Jews went on a diaspora was the realization that the Temple would always be destroyed, and theres no sense in rebuilding it. So they made synagogues wherever they went and worshipped their in reflection of the original temple of Solomon. Based on Akhenatens designs, in the reflection of Phi, and the human body. Connecting through this magic number phi, and Pi that there is a creator to this universe, and it is not just chaos and chance.

That is all I wanted to get at.

This knowledge was known, the human body displays the phi ratio, as shown by Da Vinci.

 

No it was because they're the chosen people to suffer by their vengeful god.
Providing a perfect excuse for the secret Cabal behind it all to push events into order that would prove this fact, and therefore justify anything done to the Jewish people good or bad is an act of god.

What about the Native American holocaust? Or stalin murdering 50,000 Russians. Jews included.

How about the genocides in Africa and Bosnia.

Those people never got Apartheid states, where they could reinstate a doctrine going against everything on the Magna Carta.

Don't sidetrack. I wanna hear Dauers response to all this.

 

Abraham = is a Lincoln Mercury dealership here in this town .=Abraham Lincoln

 

There is no stalemate.

I don't agree that there were annunaki in the first place.

No, I do not agree. He just had a monotheist god.

You haven't presented any hard evidence to support that.

There! You admit it! It doesn't matter what the Israelites did. What matters is what you are doing right now and you have just confessed to inventing explanations as they suit you. That's all there is to it.

No it doesn't. The seal of solomon belongs to medieval legend.

The history channel wasn't explaining how the Exodus took place. It was playing to the religious right by entertaining the ideas of certain researchers about how the exodus could have taken place. And again, the history channel is not the final word on history.

That's not a stalemate. A stalemate is a tie. You are at a loss to fit your theories with the mythical history of the Torah which you claimed supported you. If this were a game of chess, it is at this point that you would be tipping your king over. In your case, actually, you might more likely continue to play until every last pawn had been removed from the board. You're pretty much there anyway.

1. How do you know there was a historical Abraham?
2. Islam did not exist at the time of Abraham.

Abraham is called a Hebrew, as are the Jewish people to this day. What makes you think that the revelation of the Torah is what made the Jews the Jews? With Abraham we get the proposal. At Sinai we get the wedding.

So what do you think a Jew is doing by following the mitzvot? Just because the word "muslim" is related to the concept of submission does not mean it is an older term. And if we want to be critical, I'll point out that Abraham challenges God before Sodom and Gemorah; not very submissive of him. He sounds a bit more like a budding Yisrael.

You're not gonna get the Muslims or the Jews to agree with you on this one.

What's all this jibba jabba? You know in the Talmud it says that if someone tells you the moshiach is coming and you are holding a sapling to plant, first you plant the sapling and then you go greet the moshiach. In other words, don't hold your breath waiting for him to come. And have you checked out what the prophecies are according to Judaism? It's not something that could be accomplished all that easily.

It is most certainly a Jewish ideal. There has always been an ideal to live in the land. In more modern times there was more of a push to reclaim the actual territory for self-governance, without waiting for divine intervention. But its modern origins don't make it any less Jewish.

The Temple was rebuilt after the Babylonian Exile. And there isn't one singular reason for Jews spreading into the diaspora. Surely we have to consider oppression as well as economic factors.

Do you even know what the early synagogues were? There was not one uniform synagogue. There was the beit knesset, which was a place of communal gathering, the beit tefilla, which was a place of prayer, and the beit midrash, which was a place of study. One synagogue might only fill one of these roles. There were also sometimes places where Jews who were travelling from place to place could sleep within the synagogue. You make it sound as if there was some sort of uniform pattern and design to the whole thing, which there was not. It was Jews away from Israel, while the Beit HaMikdash still stood, finding ways to be Jewish even while separated from the Temple Cult. And the rest of what you say, I don't know why you even bother saying it to me. You know I think it's gobbledegook.

Let's not rehash what I've already disproven. Until you can find evidence in the Tanach that Jews were specifically chosen to suffer, why don't you drop what's unfounded?

That has more to do with people's simpathies after WWII, as well as the overwhelming number of refugees, and the terrorist tactics taken by the early settlers in Israel. You don't need a conspiracy to explain it.

He has just as much right to speak as I do. And I don't think he side-tracked at all. Last time I checked, you and I aren't the only ones who use this forum.

 

1 jew insisited that he should be driven to the gas chamber in a Mercedes Benz.

 

Dauer I guess the god of Christians is more of a god of slavery, than the god of the Jews.

Since you cannot understand the fact that aten is light power and energy deified of course it would just seem to be a monotheistic god. No different from Yahweh or Jehovah.
you could read the chapter on Akhenaten in the Lightning and Sun by Savitri Devi, but since you are semitic this work will come off offensive seeing she is a supported of the Aryan theology. However her works are all cited by scholars.http://www.vaidilute.com/books/savitri/savitri-08.html

Of course I don't because you require everything to come out of a middle school history book issued by government sanctioned theologists apart from free thinking individuality.

But the 18th dynasty was far into the Egyptian timeline, if the Hebrews did not exist by this time, then their whole religion of mythical history and history of thier tribe is a giant farse. Only to be outdone by the myth of Jesus Christ himself. Which of course they would've been the ones to kill him in the story, so only their story could be so full of bullshit another religion could not possible spawn of this deviant plot for world domination based on bullshit stolen from African wealth and wisdom by the semitic liars.

Isn't inventing something that suits you the whole point of religion in the first place? Isn't this what brought the one god monotheism out of this henotheism based on events that only the reform orthodoxy still beleives to be true.
Every person interested in religion does this.

So this is the first time its mentioned which was earlier than the Star of David, by every account I've read. Therefore unless you want to deny the fact of chronology and that things that come out into the mainstream first are actually not older than something that doesn't come out untill the 1800s as the Rothschild coat of arms, then well your insane.

Ok well forget about all the mythical 10 plagues as I was just trying to say alternate points of view that will never be agreed upon.

1.If Abraham did not exist, then well what basis is there to prove he was the patriarch of the Jewish people. What is there to prove the real Jewish people aren't black, and that the semitic jews are only barbarian pirates? What proof of a covenant is there? None. It was madeup to enslave the people to the Torah, and 10 commandments and to uphold a tradtion to keep wealth within the family. Also why then would a patriarchal religion be passed down through the mother. Doesn't make sense, Judaism is a sham and like all other monotheisms should be annihilated. Not the people, just the beleifs, since you say different things for every question I have presented. Obviously showing a culture being made out of crap.

2. Islam claims Abraham was a muslim, because there were muslims before Muhammed. Anyone who submits to gods will, and acts as a slave to that will is a Muslim. ABraham acted on his covenant with god, and kept this god as the god of his descendants.

So if Abraham and Moses did not exist and these events never happened, and the Jews never suffered in Egypt, and Babylon then what do we have.
A lie. A greedy lie to gain wealth and power, from kings which at the time was a good thing, but obviously has turned to shit.
If the Jews have not suffered what right do they have to be treated so?
You can't even talk about the holocaust without a backlash of ohh thousands of years of suffering and torment of the Jewish people!! Oh they desreve IsraeL!! THey deserve to pull the west into war with the muslims!

That was god's will anyway.

 

I expected when I saw a link that it would support your claim that she is cited by scholars, but it did not. And when I looked her up, I could not find any real credentials for authority in Egyptology. In fact, she seems to be very biased in her approach to history, as opposed to objective.

Actually, I just require credible sources. Nobody has proven the contact happened at this point. To claim that the contact did in fact happen is to go beyond the evidence we have at present.

It's not a matter of whether the Hebrews existed, it's a matter of whether they came into contact with Egypt by that time or not. And you do remember that I challenged whether or not the Exodus ever happened, right? So why do you bring this up as if you think it's going to bother me?

I don't think it is. Then again, I wouldn't be so quick to say, "This is the point of religion." It's not in my character.

I think it's a bit more likely that the people were simply adapting their existing theology to a change in situation.

There's no such thing as "the reform orthodoxy". Reform Judaism is the most liberal branch of the three largest branches of Judaism. Orthodox Judaism is the most conservative. Orthodox Judaism would probably be unlikely to accept that there ever was henotheism. It would more likely say that Abraham was living among polytheist idolators, and he became a monotheist.

The star of David is much older, appearing frequently all over the Middle East and North Africa as a symbol for good luck. It was first used as a Jewish symbol, before it was used in the Rothchild's coat of arms, in the middle ages when Jews were forced to wear it for identification purposes. The seal of solomon did not originally contain a six-pointed star. It is an association made by Muslims. And in Western legend, the symbol is not a six-pointed star. See this article:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=895&letter=S

When I entertain your questions about mythical history, it's because you claim to go by it. But let's be clear: I don't accept the mythical history, and it is of no concern to me whether or not Abraham really was the historical patriarch of the Jewish people. His myth is rich enough.

The fact that extensive genetic study has been done on the Jewish people, and we know where they originate, including groups in places like India and Africa. See this site:

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/abstracts.html

I thought you understood that I don't accept mythical history.

Or, perhaps, it was formed and reformed many times, and one of the most critical reformulations, by Josiah, was an attempt to re-organize the people after the Babylonian Exile in a civilized and unified society, doing so by speaking the voice of pre-existing myths. And what do you mean by keeping wealth within the family?

Jewishness is through the mother. Tribe is through the father. And originally iirc, Jewishness wasn't really determined so clearly. It was more a matter of assimilating into the community.

Well thank you for showing your true colors Mr. Nimrod.

Islam does claim Abraham was a Muslim, but that does not make him a Muslim. Islam originates with Muhammad. There were no Muslims before this time. To say anything else is to leap into the realm of "faith." The definition of a world has nothing to do with how old it is.

Hey now. I didn't say the Babylonian Exile didn't happen. We have historical records for that. I said we don't have any clear evidence for Egypt. The records are silent, besides the Tanach.

When someone starts proving you wrong you really get a foul mouth, don't you? You're also continuing your old pattern of making assumptions instead of letting the facts speak for themselves. Clearly, politics was a factor in some of the formation of Judaism, as it is in all religion.

I never said Jews haven't suffered. I said that's not what the covenant was about.

How many Jewish people do you know?

It doesn't matter whether it's God's will or not. Abraham acted, out of his own free will, to challenge God.

You are again making far too many assumptions. Do you think I don't believe there was an ancient Israelite nation? I simply challenge that for which there is not enough solid evidence. And frankly, Orthodox Jews are no different than any other Jews.

What about him? Do you think that having some Jews agreeing with you means Judaism agrees with you?

Politics isn't really my forte. But perhaps you'll be lucky and find someone else to debate with you over this nonsense too.

Because the magen david was already a Jewish symbol, being used to identify synagogues across Europe.

The Jews of Eastern Europe are not converts. See the genealogy site.

Are you more persuaded by conspiracies than you are by what seems most evident?