America's Gallery of Shame

okay I will give some quotes, names withheld. as I was looking for my convo I found this little nugget:

kal: "GENERALLY SPEAKING, people up north are mostly liberals. If it came down to a war within the states against an enemy...who do you think will be the fighters? some liberal hippies? NO. It will be MEN of the south and mid west"

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as for my entrance into the group:

<It started with me posting skip's pictures (or ones he found)>

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Aun: "Well I'm glad we got rid of Saddam so we don't have to see anything like that again."

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Robb: "Carl so life unsder saddam was choclate rivers and candy trees???"

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Robb: "Carl pictures of dead people show nothing?? WHo killed them what about what Saddam did to people? why not outraged at that?"

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Aun: "I noticed that some of these are from Fallujah. Well that's what happens when you fight against America. YOU DIE! And rightfully so."

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I mention this, simply posting a link:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20061106/pl_afp/usiraqmilitaryunrest
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/05/24/earlyshow/main1649689.shtml

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Aun: "So a couple hundred soldiers and seven Iraqis should dictate US policy, yep your liberal, let the slim minority poush aside the majority:

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Matt: "Carl

Such is war. I could find more pictures of gruesome acts from the Balkans, ODS, Somalia, WW2, WW1, etc.

That is war. Unfortnately the media makes it out to be some kind of sporting event with all kinds of coverage. What you are pointing out is nothing new."

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Aun: "If the Iraqis would just lay down their guns like the Germans and the Japanese did then none of this would happen. Pure and simple.....but you forget that we are dealing with animals here."

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Matt: "Yeah because the Germans and Japanese just laid down their weapons..."

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I post more pictures.

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Matt: "Carl

You are pointing out an awful lot of what has happened in a war.

Why don't you show us what happened under Saddam?"

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Aun: "Humiliating our enemies is the biggest favor we can do for the American people....especially those that have suffered at the hands of our enemies."

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Robb: "Yep B/c SAWING a guys head off while he is screaming bloddy murder is kind? and burning and dragging thourgh the streets to hang from a bridge is ok? When will you liberals stop the blame Americia first attitude!!!"

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Lou: "y cant we focus on the good that our troops have done??"

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Aun: "Because Lou, there's no news like BAD NEWS."

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Robb: "DID carl cut and run already gotta love those libs"

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Me: "the second we stepped into iraq they ceased to do good. why do you think NO ONE from the UN supported us in going to war (outside of maybe Blair for a while)? because there was no solid evidence pointing towards a need to invade."


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Laurn: Carl,

Are you serious? No one from the UN supported us because they DO NOT SUPPORT WAR.

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Robb: "No one Carl what about: Australia, Italky, POland, Ukraine, Spain, Denmark, El Salvador, and on and on and on get some real facts answer a question we have asked you or go the hell home!"

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Me: look at the pictures lauren. as for the link, its a small smapling of the general sentiments. the second link, is a story of OUR soliders petitioning the war. get a clue lauren, this is an unjust inhumane war backed by our inept government."

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Robb: Albania -.
Azerbaijan -
Bulgaria -
Central America and the Caribbean - Dominican Republic El Salvador Honduras and Nicaragua are assisting a Spanish-led brigade in south-central Iraq.
Czech Republic -
Denmark -
Georgia -
Estonia -
Hungary -
Italy -
Japan -

NOPE NOBODY RIGHT CARL???????

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<obviously many against 1..>

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Matt: US--CIA
Russia--FSR
Jordan--JIS
Germany--BDN
Israel--Massad
Egypt-- Mukhabarat el-Khabeya
France--VtN
UK--MI-6

All of these intel agencies determined Iraq was hiding WMDs

You lose

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Robb: "Under Saddam lose a soccer game die, vote against saddam die, deny his sons the right to have sex with your wife/sister/daughter DIE"

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Matt: "Robb

No use bringing human rights into it. Human rights were never a primary reason for the war."

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Me: * Belgium
* Canada
* China
* France
* Germany
* Holy See
* Morocco
* New Zealand
* Pakistan
* Russia
* Sweden
* Switzerland

pretty big list of countries against the war. just the major ones. and thats just OFFICIAL..many more unofficial

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Robb: "So to Carl if most of the world says bad idea we should listen? So what the other half of the world wants does not matter? what about what AMERICIA wants or is it more blame Americia coming out, and again are you going to asnwer any questions form us or more party lines

and to matt for me that is the reason I supported the war, b/c of what Saddam stood for thought he should have been gone a long time before this!"

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Chip: "Carl, are you suggesting that we should arrange our foreign policy around what other countries think. one of the worst diplomacy desicions a powerful country like the US can make is to allow weaker states to make their decisions for them"

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Me: "and Actually, nearly all of Saddam's atrocities were committed during the 1980s, with the full cooperation and participation of the Reagan Administration. I'm sure you know that, too."

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Me: "okay back.
chip,
why is adhering to UN policies a sign of weakness? I believe its a sign of strength to work with the UN! we should listen to other countries. it will ensure out status as one of the more powerful countries in the world. I also must say to a lot of people, "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." if you don't question this country, you are not performing your duty as an american citizen. all I ask is that you look at things from all the different outlooks provided to you though various avenues.

i've come here with many links. a lot of you guys believe what is fed to you by major media outlets. look up independent sources! I have many I use."

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Me: "dissent is the highest form of patriotism." is a ben franklin quote, forgot to mention that. questioning our countries actions and really looking at what we do is the only way to ensure our success. the second we sit back and believe what is told to us is the second this country starts that slow decline. protest is patriotic for whatever reason it may be, if its valid and done with proper sincere enlightment!

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Me: The New York Times
Sunday, September 24, 2006

Spy Agencies Say Iraq War Worsens Terrorism Threat

WASHINGTON, Sept. 23 — A stark assessment of terrorism trends by American intelligence agencies has found that the American invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks.

The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by United States intelligence agencies since the Iraq war began, and represents a consensus view of the 16 disparate spy services inside government. Titled “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States,’’ it asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread across the globe.

An opening section of the report, “Indicators of the Spread of the Global Jihadist Movement,” cites the Iraq war as a reason for the diffusion of jihad ideology.

he report “says that the Iraq war has made the overall terrorism problem worse,” said one American intelligence official.

http://www.nytimes.com/200
6/09/24/world/
middleeast/24terror.html

okay, so I will peace out for now. I do hope you folks can honestly look at multiple perspectives.

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chip: carl, I never said anything about dissent being unpatriotic (although sometimes people take it too far), and I never said anything about listening to UN resolutions. I simply stated that allowing weaker states direct the foreign policy of a powerful country decreases the amount of power the greater state has. Therefore...its a bad idea!

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Weil: UN Security Resolution 1441. We are working under the UN guidelines."

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Aun: Oh yeah. The New York Times! Now that's an American friendly newspaper.
*vomits*

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me: yah had we gone in to try and attempt a search and than disarmment a lot of countries would have supported us. we kind of wanted to just go to war..which a lot of countries did not support. there were two steps in the proposals. 1. search and attempted disarmment. TO EFFECT DISARMMENT 2. after unreasonable amount of time passes, go to war. we skipped right by 1, that is the problem much of europe had in 2003.

it scares me, in the past six years, Bush has caused the repudiation of the kyoto protocal on enviroment, withdrew from the ballistic missles treaty, rejected the test ban treaty, repudiation of the protocol to the biological weapons convention and a refusal to take part in the international criminal court. This does not sigmify to me adherence to UN policy. we only look for support when its time to go to war...

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Me: "matt I have provided a lot of information from many sources over the course of the last hour or so. Maybe the NY times is not your cup of tea, but there are many other valid sources." <not all of which I provide here as some I got from here as links>

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chip: "First off, we never signed the kyoto treaty...so we arent bound by it. the international system is one of anarchy, and the only international law is one that states agree to. It is also legal for states to pull out of treaties such as the ABM treaty, and there are usually ramifications in the treaty to guide this action. States should not be forced to signed any treaty when they havent done wrong. now I am all for cooperation with other countries, but I am not for having our own important foreign interests impeded by other states when we are the more powerful country."

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weil: "the kyoto protocol on enviroment is a joke, and to adhere to the guidelines would cause many of the industries in the US to shut down or severely reduce production. That equals a plumet in the US economy and thus a global regression.
Bush withdrew from the ballistic missles treaty in response to the utter incompetance of other nations in respecting the guidelines of this treaty. why would we stay in the treaty when Iran has refused to aqueisce to these same guidelines - along with North Korea, the Russian Federation, China and India?
Britain has also refused to take part in the international criminal court because international law lacks an executive branch to enforce the decisions. Portugal, France, Spain, and several African Nations have also refused to take part in this court."

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me: "it is very hard to keep up with all this, haha. and I am sure all I say is slipping down the pages as many people post, quite a busy place. anywho.

in response to someone who stated countries that are for us:

Every other country in the world was either forced to enter Bush’s war through debt-relief (we borrowed them money to buy weapons, and then cancelled the debt if they joined us, or we forced them to pay-which they couldn’t-in which case they then joined) or some other form of extortion."

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weil: "Poland did not join for this reason. Nor did Portugal. Every country that borrowed money from the US during WW1 save Finland still owes - I think it is not out of the question to call these debts up now."

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me: i'm gonna take a break because I don't want some of my points to be in vain as they slip down the many pages. I do believe in my stance firmly. maybe its dumb for either side to sway the other because both are stubborn and firm. this is a complicated matter and lots to learn about it. I do respect anyone with a viewpoint because many are simply to ambivilant. with that said, I am takin a break to make sure all of what we said is not in vain, to allow others to catch up, lots has been said. take it easy folks I am sure you are all pretty nice folks.

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<Because there were many irrelevant posts too and things were slipping down the pages rapidly.>

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Kal: "Again, another liberal talking point. Always bringing up the national debt. Making US look like the a holes. I agree, we should call on our loans to Europe. Maybe that'll shut em up."

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Kal: "Question..why do we owe Europe anything? Don't they owe us?"

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Lauren: "None of the countries aside from Finland that took out loans from the US for WWII paid us back. Yes they owe us."

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Fee: "we have the right to call upon any debts at any time, thats y ts a debt"


THE NEXT DAY ROUND 2 (shorter do not worry)

me: hello folks, do me a favor here:

The "War on Terror" is painfully ambiguous to me and almost everyone I have talked to regardless of stance can at least agree on that. WoT is a subjective concept afterall. what is the definition of "war on terror"? Just by looking at the name, it seems that they are fighting a war against the abstract quality of "terror". do we abide by americas definition? is Nelson Mandela a terrorist? 20 years ago our idea of terror was Nelson Mandela!

anywho, please define this term please.

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eric: "You are a flame-baiter....go away."

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cain: "War on Terror?"

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mike: "terrorism - the state of being terrorized or the act of terrorizing; the use of intimidation to attain one's goals to advance one's cause"

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cain: "Carl wants to know why we call it a war on terror, is that right Carl?"

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matt: "Carl

Use Websters and stop trolling."

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eric: "Carl,
You are arguing sematics, when semantics do not need to be argued. You simply make yourself look ignorant. 'The war on terror' is the snappy way of saying 'The war on any state or individual that will use terrorism as a way to inflict damage on the United States, her citizens, or her allies'...

The War on Terror..rollls off the tongue better."

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<actually missed that one>



HAPPY????

 

Yes I'm happy and thank you. That illustrates very well how people choose not to think for themselves and allow to accept what the U.S. government spoon feeds them as gospel. Am I safe in assuming these are students? I wonder how their opinions might turn if there were a draft?

People who refuse to think for themselves and allow lies and propaganda to justify U.S. foreign policy debacles are what empower the current administration. Without the mindsets illustrated in what you quoted the Bush administration would have gotten what they richly deserve. It's doubtful that you're going to get very far debating this with them. It brings to mind a Robert Heinlein quote that occasionally finds its way into my sig: "Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig".