An argument for the non-existance of deity

Of course.

Yup.

Agnosticism is wishy washy. Either use your reason to obtain knowledge, or continue to be wishy washy. I love that term... wishy washy... squishy squashy...

I'm curious, because people often misunderstand anothers faith, what you think my religious description of God is?

Really? How did you learn about relativity, gravity, or the deadly effects of cyanide? Why are you more inclined to believe truths about nature than truths about God?

 

I agree with you here, but have a problem with the following statement:

Bob and Gene are accountants.
I give Bob a set of books tallying up the days sales.

I give Gene a set of books that I have removed some essential information from.

They both come up with different amounts. They both follow the correct method, but only one set of books will cause the accountant to arrive at the correct total. Only Bob's numbers would be correct, although both Bob and Gene followed the correct method.

Atheists and theists cannot both have the correct answer, although they can both use the correct method to arrive at their answers.

 

Blackguard

Agree

And occam ends his participation in the thread here
Rather than say to kharakov the same thing again.
Maybe in a different way but still the same thing.
Occam believes it is wisest to simply say that
"We all have our own paths to walk"
As U did.


Occam

 

I just basically skimmed through this thread---

I have a few things to say.

First of all, how come some of you cannot find the energy to use spaces, punctuation, or paragraphs? That is SO incredibly annoying to read on here. It makes my eyes want to bug out of my head and stick to the computer screen. Sick.

Secondly, I don't see what was so hard to understand about Hikaru's explanation? I understand if you have a different *theory* or *disagree*, but how can you simply not understand the words on the screen.

Lastly, I agree for the most part, Hik. I don't believe in anything for the most part; I do believe there may be, and most likely is something *higher* than us somewhere out in the universe, something more intelligent and advanced, say aliens. But as for some sort of *power* to exist hasn't ever sunk in my system the right way.

When it comes to beliefs, [regarding things such as this] there is no logic to it. None at all. To take a leap of *faith* is to act illogical and irrational. I didn't say it was wrong, I'm not the sort of person to say that their ideas are wrong; Simply saying that you can NOT consider a God's existense to be logical, it can not be explained, and it can not be described as Hikaru said.

To relate certain events in life [say you see a "ghost"] and relate it to higher *power* or "God" is an assumption, but not logical.

The belief in God itself is not logic, common sense, etc. but an assumption that an individual makes.

Same with Atheism. Maybe I'M out of my gourd for NOT believing; Maybe I'M being illogical, but there's really no way to prove that. I am simply, personally assuming that it does not exist. And, I'll stick to my assumption unless I'm proven wrong with FACTS. Not *evidence* or scriptures, but FACTS. PROVEN FACTS.

By the way Hikaru, I'm sorry I got way off topic of what you were saying but I felt the need to throw my two cents in because I'm just that way

 

Apples+OJ:

Aye. But it should be considered ... each person has a different set of evidence for the existance of some higher power. Which means, some people DO have more evidence for it than against it, so it's not necessarily illogical to say that some higher power exists.

However, that's why I worded my argument the way I did ... I don't think any higher power can exist outside of all logic ... claiming a higher power exists s one thing, but saying it exists outside of all logic (where "power" can't even be defined) is, farfetched.

And hey, your two cents are very welcome. =)

 

Oh yeah, and to Blackguard, regarding spirit ...

I'm going to presume for a second that the "spirit" as you explained is similar or exacting to a "soul."

It doesn't make sense to me why, just because we continue on with this thread, that is evidence for the existance of a soul. I mean, concrete is resiliant, and so are our thoughts ... why should our thoughts be any less resiliant in a discussion, if we don't have a soul?

 

I totally understand what you mean; I just don't quite *agree* on every single level of what you're saying.

Quite frankly, it is my personal opinion that people who hold *evidence* that a higher power exists, are just out of their gourd. I could be too like I said before, but since I'm speaking as a matter of what I believe in, I see it differently.

My boyfriend's mother claims to have seen her dead friend's ghost. I think it was just a side effect of the grieving process. She believes it's evidence that some higher power exists.

Your back up explanation to your theory is legit, and for the most part a fact. You have defined logic and how it works; however your theory that goes along with that certain fact, can be looked at from many different angles.

Don't take it to offense or anything; I have a rare belief...or shall I say LACK of beliefs. I don't really expect anyone to agree with my point of view to tell you the truth. None the less, I can't help the way I feel and naturally look at things; although I can still see your point of view, and understand it, I don't feel the same.

 

By the way, man, you don't have to call me A+O; I don't mind if you call me by my first name. Everyone asks me what it is anyway.

 

Well maybe I thought "Apples + OJ" was inventive, Bekka. =P

 

but see, Josh, that's where you're mistaken, because I'm not Apples+Oranje JUICE.

Just giving you shit, but really please do just call me by my first name.

 

Hicky

OldFartSay
"young man who ignor eyes of lady...biggest fool in creation."

Occam

 

Oh, <3!

Wise and fun alike, let's all gang up on me now! :H

 

Perhaps god / gods surpass the limitations of form and structure and image that humans place on them or place them in. Images and forms are there to help you navigate through material world but god does not need these things to navigate.

blueprints, maps, time ( and some may even think god/ gods) are all things we create as maps to understand objects and placement so that we can navigate through life on somekind of track. They are made made abstract thoughts to help us. Other animals don't need these things for the sake of existance they just exist.

 

*Clicks fingers on desk*

What a *god* needs to exist... will never be a fact.

Some will say, what Hikaru does...and some will agree with Applespark's theory... the FACT that it CAN be debated... means there is no *truth* to ANY explanation...It is ALL a matter of opinion, theory, and personal belief systems...

Theories, theories, theories...

I say, we stop searching for an answer, and just live life to the fullest....Who's with me?

 

i'm with you on that one Apples + Oranges...

 

Thanks Pabsy *grabs your hand and skips merrily along with you* :-D

 

... which is an interesting suggestion, which has already led me to another discussion with a close friend ...

However, if some god does exist that can exceed the limitations of form and structure and image ...

That god MUST have some definition, which states that he DOES exceed these limitations, in which case, such god MUST exist in some form of logic.

Hurrah! But that is not to say we shouldn't overturn a few rocks and have a few discussions along the way.

*grabs hands and skips merrily as well* =)

 

yes but the definition of reasoning is "The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning. " reasoning comes from the brain but the mind isnt attached to the bone-and I think god is higher states of mind wich still falls into logic but dosent mean god has to take form in a body substance.

 

Well in any case, I'm going to commit every deadly sin and hope for the best.

Who wants to get naked?

 

A Conundrum.

How to not end up with foot in mouth.
Be yourself. seems contradictory no?
But other half is very smart.. It see what is heart.
Should run planet earth but men too stupid to see this.

Occam