An argument for the non-existance of deity

Or perhaps the explanations are like wispy lingerie made of mist. Beautiful to the eyes that percieve, exciting our desire for the juicy goodness within.

 

Ahh, but we are not talking about reasoning, we are talking about logic ...

My argument is not that God exists outside of our reasoning. That's very well possible. My argument is that, even if he exists in a different kind of logic, he MUST exist in SOME form of logic, in order to be able to exist at all.

 

Sure. Why not.
Whatever floats your boat. :H

 

Right on, lol.

I think this idea was better than mine.... *gets naked and skips merrily along*

 

Yeah man, I wanted to add that but was too lazy: that... discussing it is fine, in fact, it's intriguing to me... otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum. I just meant, that whilst we discuss it, we needn't get so wrapped up in searching for answers that we waste precious time here on earth, doing so.

It's cool to discuss your beliefs, and put it out on the table, how you see things... but it irritates me when people actually try to find truth in it all... as if anyone even has the capability to do so. We don't. Trying to find truths, and shoving it down people's throats is a waste of life, I think. [And that is not directed towards any one of you, I'm saying this in a general...way I look at things]

And yay, I feel like I'm in the Wizard of Oz *continues skipping*

 

ugh sorry I'm not sure why I typed reasoning up there I meant the definition of Logic is ( the above) Sorry I'm sick.

 

Applespark, you're too cute.

 

K let me start over nowthat I'm feeling a lil better . I was reading in one of my books today ( The Upanishads) and came accross this quote

" there is only one way to know the self,
And that is to realize him yourself.

The ignorant think the self can be known
By intelect, But the illuminated know he is beyond the duality
of the knower and the known"

This is kind of how I view thinking of "god" ( no I am not christian) But What I was saying earlier or trying to...was that god does not struggle in duality or logic because he is already self realized and past logic. There is no need for logic when you just "are"
Why would "god"need -The study of the principles of reasoning, especially of the structure of propositions as distinguished from their content and of method and validity in deductive reasoning? God already knows these things.

I'm speaking of indian philosophies and not of christianity.

 

Applespark:

You asked the question, "Why would god need [logic] [when you just "are"]"

So my response is ... how can anything just "be" if there is no structure to define what "is" and "isn't?" That structure is logic ... so how can any specific thing exist without being defined in a specific way according to specific rules?

 

because I think it's more like an expanded form of outer mind. Self realization...or great enlightenment.For example everything has potential to get to higher states of conciousness through reincarnation and work on karmas / yoga etc...so you start out as form and logic but transcend it all when you are a god. So in english terms yeah you could say you start out as a base and of conciousness but your not that once you are god...I know it's hard for my to say with words. Im also still learning about it all myself here but this is why GOD does not need logic he jsut IS but why YOU or I would need logic because we are not there yet in our enlightenment. Does that make sense? Like getting rid of layers of skin can you imagine transcending logic?

 

I'm trying to get some answeres from someone who knows more about this then I do Because now Im a lil confused myself

 

This whole topic of discussion reminds me of ...when I try to think about how the universe supposedly goes on forever, and has no end... and it makes my brains want to squirt out through my ears thinking about it.

This is what bothers me most about the idea of believing god ---not everyone, but a lot of people that DO believe in a god, act as if they understand it and KNOW--- No human brain could POSSIBLY grasp something like that. Saying, hypothetically if a God exists, and it is how everyone describes it to be...just this sort of existing power, not a human, or whatever --- You can say that 10x in a row, but do you understand it? No.

Maybe you believe in it, but there's no possible way you can understand it, just as much as you can not mentally PICTURE the universe's infinite existence.

Humans are born, and die, and we cannot mentally grasp something that has no end or logic behind it.

Believe what you will, but no one can possibly tell me, and make me believe that they fully understand it. No one does, and no one will... EVER.

 

Apples

The idea that the universe ins infinite in extent 'goes on forever'
Is merely a theory, science 'knows' no such thing.

However, occam agrees fully, in his life he has met only one or two people who can even hold the concept of the distance to one of the closest stars to us [say tau ceti] in their heads as a complete thing.
Just a few light years.
Let alone the 14 BILLION lightyear distance to objects that the hubble scope can observe.

Any who say they understand a god. Lie.
For that understanding would make them one.

Occam

 

A possibility:

If God exists in everything, everyone is one with God. Perhaps we are all alike on some fundamental level, and to realize this part of ourselves is to understand God.

You can't truthfully say it's impossible to understand God. Maybe you just don't want anyone to be able to, because you would then feel insecure in your ignorance. If someone claims to understand God, naturally you'll say they don't, whether they do or not. And since the existence of God is impossible (?) to prove, it stands to reason that it might be just as impossible to prove one's understanding of God.

I could say the same thing about reality. No one can possibly claim to understand what is real. Yet we may be superreal (I guess), and understand reality completely fully, without being able to prove we know anything about it.

On logic... If there is a higher logic, our logic must be inadequate. So what we know as logic may not be absolutely logical. Get what I'm saying? That's what people mean when they talk about God existing outside of logic, I think. You can't use logic to prove that God must exist within a framework of logic, because our logic may be unreasonable.

My reasoning for God's existence is that I believe in eternal life. And where life is eternal, infinite power, knowledge, etc. can possibly be attained. I think it's reasonable to believe in eternal life. We know the universe is conscious, just as we are conscious. Is any part of a living system not alive? I guess you'd say that life is what happens while the system that is capable of it still exists. I.e. my fingers are alive, but only because they are a part of a greater system that is alive.

But there is a greater living system, the universe, of which we are and always will be a part, even as corpses. What we consist of will always exist and always be a part of a living system. And just as we say our fingers are alive, what we consist of will always exist as a functioning part of a living system. It's perfectly reasonable. I would go so far as to say it's obvious. Everything affects everything else. You don't need to think to be alive.

 

pop_terror

Occam does not factor 'anyone' into his process of understanding.
The number of people who believe a thing is irrelevant to its factuallity

And occam ONLY FEELS SECURE in his IGNORANCE.
For ignorance comes before understanding.

Occam proposes that you call your ignorance.
Belief in the 'christian god'.

Rather than just admit you are ignorant like us all.

Occam

 

You don't have to fully understand to feel. The point isnt to be god or understand god it's to live your life accrding to healthy posative standards in turn you get what you put out ... as much as you put out to the universe is what you get back therefore if you have no reason or sense of finding your place with a god then you shal not ever find it...if you put the energy twards it then you will. And one whose never tried cannot say it does not exist because one has not put forth the energy to recieve it or to find it in yoruself. it is always tehre but you have to open the door to it. I was athiest once. I find my life fuller as now I am open to possabilities of spirit and I dont fight it I find it intresting.

 

Apple

True
And one can do so without ever taking a god into consideration.

But there is a group of people on this planet that says
WE CANNOT BE GOOD BY OUR OWN THOUGHTS AND ACTS.
BY OUR OWN REASON AND HEART.
That we are to stupid and weak.
They are the religious.


Occam

 

I know. and those people turn people away from religion...and they have no real base...they do work from weakness. I do understand. I find it far more relevant if it comes from within and works outword. I didn't grow up in a spiritual home and I found it hard to accept it that there was such a thing to be spiritual at all...I didn't knwo the point. There are so many levels of feeling and thinking I feel more open to be open to the possabilities of spirit maters instead of just denying it ever exists. Denying theings exist is like closing a door and when you close doors you shut your self off to possibility. Just like a religious person can do the same thing but they use their religion to denounce otehrs for their beliefs.

 

Ah, hell-- Ignorance?
And I don't want anyone to be able to believe in God? Where did I EVER say that?

I could care LESS what YOU believe in... if believing God or anything to that affect pleases you, and completes your life... HONESTLY, more power to you, and major props. JUST because I personally do not believe in any sort of God, and choose not to be a slave to a God that may or may not exist... does not ever imply that I don't want anyone else to believe in it.

I GREW UP in a Catholic family, please, do NOT write me off as ignorant, or that I do not understand the way a Christian religion works or that I do not WANT anybody to believe in such a thing. I've been through 12 years of religious schooling, and Church every Sunday... I came to the conclusion of my beliefs with the HELP of all that, because it never seemed to ring true to my heart.

What a person believes, or doesn't believe does NOT make a person ignorant.

This is where I DO become irritated with those who believe in a God or Gods...is when they write off others as ignorant; as if their religion is CORRECT and FACTUAL, and that anyone chooses not to believe is "ignoring the facts"

And I wasn't trying to offend anybody with what I said, I just simply believe that such a concept of a God, or a never-ending universe is not within the realms of the human brain's capabilities.

You may believe it, and understand what you believe, but to me it's impossible to picture anything of the sort, and be correct.

Here's an example: before I got my tattoo, I was trying to imagine how it would feel and what not, trying to understand it, to prepare myself... but when I went and got it done, the way I imagined it was nothing like what it actually felt like. Just as you can try to picture, or imagine what "heaven" or "hell" would be like, but that doesn't mean you will be correct.

Going off that explanation, there is also a beginning and end to your brain, to your knowledge, and to your mental capacity, meaning that it is NOT possible to possibly know and grasp something that is neverending. You may believe and PERSONALLY "know" that it's out there... but that does not mean, that your brain has the power to grasp what it's really like, about it's inhuman, unearthly existence. For the most part, the other Catholics I went to religious schooling with always tried to PICTURE god, as if god were human --- Though they *knew* god was not human, they still gave god human like traits, in attempt to help them make sense of it.


It is all a matter of perception. Please, do not write me off as ignorant without fully understanding my point. I accept others' beliefs and am GLAD that not everyone sees things the way I do. What a boring world it would be if everyone felt the same.

 

Atheism is not a "denial", it is a "disbelief". The burden of proof is on the claimant. And there has to be some way, some faculties to use to produce some tangible evidence for any claim. Otherwise, it is just wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking...promoted by constant verbal gymnastics. And the 40,000 different versions of the "real" truth and why "I'm right"...and what "God really means is...", what "the Bible really says is...", "God is this, no God is that, no God is both, no God is all..." etc.etc.etc.

Atheism is a state of non-theism: a state of NON-belief in God or Gods.

When I say, "There is no God". I am basically saying there is no thing such as the concept of what you say is called "God"...in any natural, logical or possible way. And if there is another "realm" un-natural and super-natural, there has to be some way to detect it--if not with the faculties of our mind, then with what?

And How can I "deny" something that I "disbelieve" exists? Wouldn't there have to be something there TO deny?