An element of evolution

exactly....

though the seeding earth theory was a verylarge interest of mine a couple of years ago. but it sort of went quiet.

i think it was to do with spores however, so, fungi

 

Right. Evolution works on existing hardware. If the rhinos are fighting with their noses, a mutated rhino that has a horn might fight more effectively. But the mutation was still random, it didn't happen because the rhino's parents thought a horn would make their son fight better, haha.

Usually, things evolve at first for different purposes than they are later used for. Maybe the first rhinos dug roots with their noses, which toughened up with keratin growths, which turned out to be useful for fighting. Usually what are now primary uses were once secondary or tertiary (or so on) uses, because it'd be hard for something to evolve as a primary cause, given that it doesn't even exist before it evolves. Something else must be driving the evolution to go that way, then adapts to use the results in new and interesting ways.

 

Yeah ~ Is suppose that's one of the incomprehensible bits - the enormity of time.

 

Yeah, that a long time, dude. I think of how long it's been since the beginning of the semester and...wow...4.6 billion years. That's a mind-expanding thought.

 

can someone explain to me how a random mutation can create a functioning horn?
and how that one creatuer could then go to rule the entire rhino race (since a horn gives an upper edge, not an invulnerability)

personally i think to follow the 'random' mutation string is futile.

the rhino example maybe wasnt that great because the rhino itself evolved from creatures with pre-existing nose things.

maybe for example the iguanadon.
its predecessor wouldnt have sudenly mutated a huge thumbnail in replacing its thumb. thats stupid, it would die well before it could spread the trait.

however if iguanadons came to having potential using their thumbs as weapons or tools o whatnot, quite quickly the iguanadons with thel arger humb-claws would take over and in a few generations it would be possible tht the thumb nail would become so large that the thumb itself was useless.
in a couple of hundred years, the thumb would be completely replaced by a huge thumb-nail that became the signature of the iguanadon.

if a single iguanadon had a mutationwhereby its thumbnail took over from its thumb, it might survive better than some iguanadon. maybe breed with a few more. but their numbers would have been huge nonetheless. and this may have simply introduced a new type of iguanadon thats slightly better to surviving. under this model, the evolutionary process would take many many thousands of years to become an element of the iguanadon on the whole.

i hope no one has confused my idea for the one that says if trees grow taller and parets cant reach them that the baby would have a greater neck.

remember that most defence tools are for defending against other species. the reason an affective trait might spread is not as much that it gives the reature the upper hand but perhaps simply that the trait becomes ATTRACTIVe when mating is concerned. the female would recognise the trait as a survival one in the male and prefer them over the ones wihtout the trait. and vice versa.

 

thats what im sayin in the theory except that theres a possibility that some traits FIRST came about simlpy due to the resuly of breeding. as in im suggesting in certain traits there is a possibility that they simply amplify due to the complex nature of genes.

like if you keep breeding a species then some trait will just change without any reason, except that it is a bit of an odd gene and so it compounds on every generation.

 

okay, I think this might have worked better with this animal

The Horse Lineage:
Mesohippus to Equus
The horse line started out small and ate more like a sheep. Legs were short, neck was short, they also had divided hooves.
As time went on and the environment changed different aspects, that had been changing thoughout the time before, were more needed. Legs got longer to run faster, teeth shape changed to eat how they do now, the hoof went to a round shape we see, the neck did lengthen over time and the body became bulkier.

Also giraffes necks have been evolved as well, they didn't start out the length we have now.

Stoner I hope I reiterated what you were trying to get across. And to others if I did I made it come out easier.

 

we hopefully all know what evolution is in this thread, but the specific catalyst that would lead to a new organ on the body is what im trying to adress.

evidently these changes on the horse occured but the horse lineage doesnt really introduce new features, more the shape and efficiency of different features.

 

I think what would happen is this thumbnail-ed individual who was different from all the others would realize that it could outcompete members of the same species for food by fighting them off, fend off predators in the same way, and so have a better chance of surviving to find a mate (or two). Then, when the next generation (call it G1) comes along, assuming the trait is dominant, will all be heterozygous. Call it Tt. If heterozygous displays the trait for the thumbnail, they'll out compete more of the tt (normal thumb-ed), driving them closer to extinction. Albeit not by much, but stay with me. So if the Tt displays the trait, it'll keep passing it on, and the offspring in future generations that come out tt from a Tt Tt cross will probably die before they can mate, thus diminishing the frequency of the trait.

If the Tt individuals don't show the trait, however, it wouldn't show up until at least G2. When two Tt individuals mate, they'll have a 25% chance of being TT and displaying the trait. Then, those ones will outcompete the others for mating, and ensure that the population is more purely TT, although probably more slowly. At least at first.

Either way, thumbnail-less individuals would become very rare quickly.

 

How about radiation exposure? How volatile was the sun's radiation back then? Is the earth exposed to supernova radiation bursts over time? It must be. The crab nebula supernova was observed in 1054 by the Chinese who described a star that brightly flickered and could be seen during the day, and that was just the visible light spectrum.
The Chernobyl disaster raised human mutation rates 600% http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0509-02.htm
Also the rate of thyroid cancer is 10,000 times higher than anywhere else on earth.
So what happens if prehistoric species are exposed to super blasts of radiation?

Or maybe aliens had some real bio-engineering fun!

 

radiation will not cause a horn to grow. a horn is more than a simple mutation. it is many mutations. as with the humb of the iguanadon.

and the iguanadon do not fight eachother with their thumbs, they use them for protection.

therefor, the thumb would have to be such a good tool and their enemy would have to be so threatening that the ones with this gene would breed significantly more (otherwise the gene would fade back and just be a random occurance)

but iguanadon's weapon is not much ofa weapon. its more of a token add on to give them something to fight back with. a t-rex would kick iguanadon's ass instantly.

IF the iguanadon suddenly developed a huge thumb then the puncuated equillibrium wouldnt be so, it would take many many generations for the trait to spread to a WHOLE species and for the ones wihtout the trait to simply die off.

 

People seem to have all kinds of crazy beliefs about what evolution is. It's really extremely simple.

Creatures without traits favorable for survival die. Those WITH the favorable traits survive and pass those traits on to offspring. Let nature whittle and carve away at a creature like this for millions of years, and of course you're going to have a significantly different animal.

 

Geo....

Thats pretty much it....

What many say however..Is that 'How did current species evolve all the highly specialised traits that allow them to survive.'
How did those traits come to be?

Are they incremental changes or the product of gross mutations.?

We dont know yet...Thus evolution is an OPEN theory.

However.The theory seems to work just dandy in other arenas
such as human society. Thus occam gives it credence.

And also..It's the only half rational theory we have.

Of course aliens or god could have intervened...
And occam gives that a possibillity as well.
[even though neither are observed by huamnity.]

The funniest thing though, are people who think evolution
is fact..but dont agree that humanity has A LOT OF EVOLUTION COMMING.

Occam replies.
Tell that to me mum...
She is technically a cyborg.
A creature composed of biologic and machined parts.
She is a new variant of our species..
And soon whole new species of man will come to exist.
One option is to modify our DNA to only handle left handed sugars.
[or was it right]
Anyway..in doing so..we render ourselves immune to ALL earthly desease.

We have reached a stage where we wil evolve ourselves.
Not through enviromental adaption. but desire.

Excellent

Occam

 

There is also sexually defined evolution whereby the most glamorous of the species more succesfully breed while the not-so-glamorous don't (as often, at least). Maybe female Iguanadon's get horny when they see big thumbs! All this can be the result of mutatuions which can themselves be caused by radiation or chemical stimuli.
It is said that human consciousness was dramatically accelerated when psylocybin containing mushrooms were consumed by our forebears. More than possible, highly likely.

 

Mr Ree

Honnesty

Yes that is tue..But after 30.
Occam stopped worrying about what women look like.
And started wondering if they had a brain...
That was some time back...just after occam became a sentient being.

Just like with men...

The older you get..the less important the exterior.
The more important the guts of the matter.
This is called wisdom...no?


Occam

 

Are you suggesting that psilocybin caused genetic mutations? Because I don't think this acceleration in conciousness could have been passed passed on to children otherwise.

 

I'm not suggesting genetic transferrance gEo_tehaD_returns, but rather throwing an optional circumstance into the ring. Somehow I don't feel that consciousness is a genetic thing, but rather a spiritual aspect of self that can be opened or closed, depending upon stimulus. But I certainly take the point questioning the modality of passing on such attributes is intrigueing to say the least.
As a practitioner of homoeopathic medicine, I find these case studies relevant ~
A girl in my medical class had a violent reaction when she heard the word "watermelon" to the extent she vomited and retched. She explained that reaction had happened for as long as she could remember. The lecturer suggested she ask her mother about the fruit, and the following story came back.............. while pregnant, the mother had cravings, one of which was for watermelon. She said that she ate 2 watermelons each day for about a week, when suddenly she became revolted by them and vomited all she had eaten that day. At that time she was 2 months into term.
What appears to have happened is that the child has inherited the mothers adverse reaction to the watermelon craving. In the same way, a woman I know loved clasical music, and played Mozart during conception and 24/7 while pregnant. Her child was born a child prodigy and, at age 8, won a scholarship and travelled from Sydney Australia to the London Symposium for musically gifted children. Neither of his parents had a musical bone in their bodies, yet the kid was a musical genius.
So what I am suggesting is that intellectual/mental/emotional/psychological capacities are transferred in-utero, and thus passed on unto the generations, whether the characteristics be positive or negative.

 

Yes indeed Occam ~
Problem is, sexual virulence and procreativity occurs while youth, selfishness, vigor, and stupidity combine, thereby muliplying "self-ish" and all of the problems that "self-ishness" creates.
Stepping out of "self-ish" and into "self" is the the result of wisdom borne of weariness borne of age.
I too wonder what the contents of those flash bodies is composed of, and recall an interaction with a gorgeous young lady some 14 years back when I said to her "you have the most beauty that I have ever laid eyes on, but you have the ugliest nature I have ever encountered."

 

oh shit how the hell could that one have been missed... while traits may not be passed down genetically.. a mother may be able to program their child to develop differently depending on their own environment. not consciously of course.. but just.. somehow.. fuck.. im going to stop thinkning for an hour and hit myself.

 

though i dont think that has any relevance to silly homeopathic medacine

and it could simply be a great idea based on coincidence but i will definately LOOK INTO IT!