I know I will get flamed for this but one thing I noticed about some people in the States. They like to take sacred things (rituals, wears and such) and make them hip or a fashion statement or to exploit them in some way even in a negative way.
Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's often the case that acts of cultural rebellion [i.e. practising alternative religions to Christianity] are made mainstream so it looses the potency and order is restored. Usually by way of marketing, though politics can play a part.
No this is true. That is why I am a bit of a recluse because I don't sense very much integrety in the culture. And by that I don't just mean trustworthiness, or truthiness as Colbert would say, but also the resolve to go "all the way". That means you don't make little gestures but big ones. If you want to have a ritual feast you don't give potato salad in paper plates. You have the best damn food you can afford. If you make an alter you don't take a card table and slap some pentagrams and candles on it, you put your entire soul into it. Heart and integrety go a long way. It just seems to me, that many people are content to read a couple of books and then call themselves priests/esses. I followed my teacher faithfully for 10 years before I even felt I could call myself that, and it took another 6 years until I dared tell other people I felt like I was a priest. And this wasn't from reading a book either. This was from reading countless books PLUS being with my teacher most of the time at least once a week. Sometimes this meant long talks and other times polishing dozens of pieces of metal objects. This is all part of learning.
I totally agree with you! When I see "New-Age" occult shops I often think, How does all this fancy crystals & polished athames really bring them close to their beliefs. It knowledge it's experience & guidance. I remember one Voodoo Mambo once said. You never stop learning. No mater what you will never know everything". It was funny you mentioned the "table" altar. A good friend & co worker she is an Eclectic Celtic Wiccan ( still not sure what that is!) uses a plastic folding snack table.But it contains the most expensive ritual tools you could imagine. But ues, many go into spiritual beliefs & practices half-heartedly.
Well I suppose you can see where I'm coming from if you're into Voodoo, since I practiced Lukumi for 15 years. I am phasing out some aspects not because my teacher is gone now and he was my link to the community. I don't feel like dealing with the Cubans who, when they see me, either see dollar signs or just an ignorant white American. I have been initiated for 6 years - almost 7 now. Sure there are people out there who are good, but I don't know if I want to spend the energy. My teacher taught me a lot of things and also taught me to be self-sufficient, so I think he gave me a good solid footing. I'm not so much abandoning what I learned as adapting it to planetary worship. Very much a work in progress.
**This post is best viewed with a grain or two of salt. I'm just feeling all ranty ** The only thing as bad as a fluffy bunny pagan is a more-pagan-than-thou pagan. We all do what we do for whatever reasons we do it and if it works for that person, why judge? The card table wiccan isn't looking for the same thing that you are and who are you to imply that it holds no value or is half-hearted. It holds value to the practitioner and that's all that matters. Religion changes. Mainstreamism happens and has been happening forever. I think the best thing to do is forget about it and to get rid of the need to juxtapose ourselves next to them inorder to make our own mode of worship seem more valid. "Now I'm just a poor dude makn' a living on the Nile but man those rich bitch rulers got it all wrong...shit. We want a blessing, sure but all those big ass temples and fancy gold tools and all that organization...man, they've really lost touch.... " ---------------------- "Man, did you see those greeks? That Goddess is totally Isis!" "I know and not only did they rip her off but they changed her name and have you seen what they do to worship her? Pffft...that's not the proper way. Hope they don't expect any real blessings from her. " "Hey, at least Isis has made the rounds though most of this part of world and is known. I'm from an outlying region in buck-fuck-nowhere and all of a sudden our local god has a temple and a whole new story to fit him in with the rest of their lot." "Those mainstream Athenians, man....shit..." ------------ " That's not the God's real name?! They freakn' changed it all. Do they really expect to get the favour of the gods when they invoke them by the wrong name? What a rip off. It's just watered down! Freakn' mainstream Romans...." "Don't have to tell me, I worship the indeginous gods and now these big-wigs move in? It's a bleedn' shame..." or from a different ballpark "Man, they're not real Xtians. They beleive in gay marriage. Freakn' mainstream watering down our values! " "That's not a real Muslim, he's just been influenced so much by westernism that he's lost all touch! " I'll admit that I've been a hypocrite here myself from time to time. I understand that gut reaction to mock the fluff and have done so before but it just irks me when it seems to slip into all pagan conversations or when pagans use it to define themselves as 'what they are not'. I'm also feeling more than a little contrary and erisian this morning...
Nope not holier than thou. It seems like it is wrong to be firm. If you any research on the occult, or whatever you want to call it, prior to the Victorian era - and especially prior to the mid-20th century, you will see a few things that seem to be in most lines of thought. First - philosophy. In all of the old grimoires, the majority of the book is philosophy. Why? Because if you want to commune with the gods or spirits, then your brain has to be in a certain state, and you HAVE to understand ceratin truths. This is not unique to any religion per se. Second - education. You have to spend a long time working towards your goal. This might be years. In the old mystery religions and certainly in Voodoo, Lukumi, and the like you would never self-initiate. In fact it's pretty much impossible if you know what it is they do during initiations. Many people might hang out for years until they get initated. Third - Integrety. You do what you say you are going to go when you say you are going to it. If a ritual is supposed to be "ABC&D" then that is what you do. Period. This isn't a game. If the best time to do a ritual is at 3AM on a Tuesday then you do it. There has been a major change in attitude over the last few generations that "if it feels good then do it". In religion the emphasis is on self-empowerment, relaxation, and feelin' good. Are these things wrong? Of course not. Is this all religion has to offer? Definitely not. I also do astrology and I hear people all the time saying "I CAN'T be an Aries! I feel more like a Pisces!" Well who cares what you feel like? You are what you are. Learn to take advantage of what you were born with. This is why I almost never buy astrology or occult books written past the 17th century. There are few exceptions. The reason why is that the more research I do, the emphasis is on knowledge and patience. You get knowledge by earning it and not by entitlement which is what many people today seem to believe. Who wrote the books published today? Why are they so knowledgeable? I have seen many a Wiccan and ceremonial magic book that practically took xeroxes of talismans from Agrippa and then left out all of the information on how and when to make them. These are the books people are buying today, and most people have no idea that they are only getting a third of the knowledge, and yet these are the same people who think I am being too judgmental. Oh well have fun with that. I know in Lukumi, there have been many secrets lost because elders will not pass the secrets on if there isn't anyone around who can be trusted. Over the last 75 this is happening more and more. My teacher actually had an attempted lawsuit by a student because the student believe that since he was initiated he was bound to receive certain knowledge. My teacher didn't feel the student was ready. And he got sued for it. My teacher had to practically live with HIS teacher to learn certain things. Can you commune with the gods by throwing some candles on a card table? Sure. Are you doing this because this is all you can afford? Ok I can understand that. Are doing this because you are being half-assed? Even after all of this bitching, the real fault doesn't lie in the practitioners since frankly most don't even know better. The true fault is in the teachers and information that is available. I might be wrong here, but i have yet to see a modern book on Pagan philosophy. However you can find all sorts of books on rituals and spells. How can you do a spell when you don't have the philosophical depth to do it? So if you think this is too harsh that's fine.
You have no idea! lol...i hate it and its annoying..I was involved with a huge argument a few weeks ago with local catolog pagans..all black and an ass load of pentegrams... I hate it. But...its part of our world i guess.
See I knew I would get flamed!! But at least a few are understanding where I am coming from. First off self-initiated. That I never understood "The card table wiccan isn't looking for the same thing that you are and who are you to imply that it holds no value or is half-hearted. It holds value to the practitioner and that's all that matters." I never said there was anything anything wrong. Nor did I say SHE (some do) was going into it half heartedly. But she is more concerned with her tools then knowing what they represent. My Own belief system has it's money makers. You would not believe how many in Haiti & Cotonou, Benin feed of the money of "voodoo seekers". I don't claim to be holier then thou. But I do call them As I see them It's all good.
I know what you mean exactly...I live very close to New Orleans, so to see a "voodoo doll" on someones desk at work, or whatever, is no big surprise...and you can't walk through the French Quarters without being bombarded with voodoo, grisgris, and Madame Lavoue.
Heron is right. They are all a part of our world. To snatch a verse, "Judge not lest ye be judged". BodyElectric: You forgot my favorites: "What kind of wood makes the best athame?" and "Where's your penta-thingy?"
Yes to both? So people who kill a deer for food are freaks? And you right, those Christians with their ritual cannibalism are pretty freaky.
Maybe he just doesnt know what secular means....who knows.... I can't believe that the same people that get their meat at walmart say that killing the animal yourself (in a sacred manner) is so wrong...You know what I say is wrong? Mass killing of animals in slaughter houses...by way of air powered jack hammers....but to intimatly kill with honor, reverence and respect is freakish!
Very true, overall. There has been some controversy regarding kosher meat but that was more to do with the particulars of mass production. Still not comparable to small scale hunting or what have you. This almost makes me want to break out the PETA videos just be obnoxious* Honestly, would it kill the critics to actually prove some elaboration of their answers? or just go away, because otherwise they're not actually helping. Perhaps if they did explain then we could provide better responses and improve the discussion. *for the record I loath PETA for every reason imaginable... so wouldn't really want to inflict them on anyone.
You're welcome PETA just seems to embody everything that's wrong with the animal rights movement; and if they can turn away someone who fundementally agrees with those principles then that doesn't really inspire much optimism. I'm still vegetarian and suppourt animal welfare, but in general I've chosen to channel my energies elsewhere. my even my debating skills are put to better use here; Pagans are more original in their debating.
