Any Atheist And/or Agnostic Rt's?

It's only living things that make proteins, as far as I know. I don't think there's anything you can eat that isn't killing something or other.

 

Good one. But you can't live exclusively on milk or dairy. And you're still causing the deaths of millions of bacteria.

 

When there is scientific evidence that brain damage affect's people consciousness, diseases such as alzheimer's clearly have neurological basis, and stuff like drugs effect brain chemistry, at what point is it acceptable to conclude that consciousness is generated by the brain without being prejudice?

 

I won't worry about the bacteria....LOL

 

Soy is protein and a good meat substitute, but are you killing soy beans? LOL

 

I don't know. I'm not saying it either is or isn't.
I agree there's a lot of evidence that it is, but still I'm not 100% convinced. Perhaps though some new discoveries will be made and I'll re-evaluate my position.

Just one thing though - even if consciousness is purely the epiphenomenon some say it is, I still think there's space for - well not quite religion, but certainly for spirituality. But that would mean something more focused on the here and now, on this life rather than some vague notion of an afterlife.

It amuses me a little bit when atheists say that there is no self, consciousness is an illusion etc, then get angry because this non existent self of their own gets pricked by something.

 

They were alive until picked, then they were dead.

 

Are you aware of the evidence for the Big Bang? I think it consists of Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation, Red Shifting of Stars and observations of the universe expanding. That seems to me less to work with to make an inference than many of the findings of neuroscience. Just pointing that out because brain generated consciousness seemed like kind of an odd spot to start with as the primary position of atheism.

Consciousness being generated by the brain doesn't necessarily exclude spirituality, perhaps it may invalidate certain aspects or associations of spirituality.

I don't understand your third paragraph, I haven't really heard those position posited by atheists. Certainly not any that would in the same breadth draw upon a materialistic explanation of the mind.

 

I'm not at all against science - I want to make that clear. I'm fully aware of the scientific world view and current cosmological theories and discoveries. So far as I can be anyway.

Neuroscience is very interesting, but as I don't have scientific training, I know I'm only skimming the surface and know only a limited amount. I said before that I agree there is some evidence that consciousness is produced by the brain, but I haven't seen anything that is conclusive. Therefore I keep an open mind.

Why this question about consciousness? Because it's absolutely fundamental to religion that consciousness is not simply a production of purely physical processes that ends with the death of the body. If it could be proven with no room to doubt that it is so produced, then religion would be shot, or they'd resort to denial etc. So it may seem an odd choice, but I think it's highly relevant.

I don't understand your comment - I'm pretty sure that the standard materialist view is that consciousness is an epiphenomenon and the self an illusion.

 

You're right. It would've been more accurate for me to say that I hate the Abrahamic religions. I am intrigued by some ancient religions and tribal religions, and even some parts of the Abrahamic religions, but I do hate the Abrahamic religions for the pain and suffering they've caused all over the world.

 

TNS - that's what I mean by polarization. You say you hate the AB religions - and I can fully understand that - but aren't you just setting up another axis of hate by feeling that way?
I agree that they acted in ways which defy comprehension when it comes to human rights abuses and actually sheer evil in past times, and today continue to menace the world. But I don't think hating them is the answer.

Rejecting their claims, seeking new and more human values, deeper and more satisfying forms of spirituality - rejoicing in the truths that science has revealed - just some kind of positive rather then negative response to the curse of monotheism is needed.

One of the main things I dislike about Christianity is the way in which it came to embody hate. I mean stuff like burnings at the stake and all that. That's why we despise them. But to hate them would be wrong. Because then we'd be no better, and couldn't claim to have more progressive values then their own.

Living in the UK it's probably much easier to just simply forget about Christianity and ignore it than it is in America. But that's mainly my attitude. Like an old folk custom that will die out within a couple more generations.
Islam of course is another matter.

 

Certain religions may be shot, however there are also concepts such as reincarnation which produce a whole different set of variables and escape your idea. Also, many religious people use the term 'soul' as the essence which persists beyond death, I'm sure many theists who ascribe to the afterlife idea could convince themselves as that as something not inherently synonymous with consciousness.

The modern scientific view of self and that of some of the prominent atheists I'm aware of is one of an interaction of DNA, genes, brain, body and environment.

 

I feel I've been agnostic since I can remember.

To take a side of, god is real vs god doesn't exist, is just dumb. Both side's are legitimate at times, not 100% though because us humans in this human form can't prove whats next. People say they have died and came back at the hospital. Where their heart stops and then beats again and the person now has an amazing story to tell. I'm not saying I don't believe them. I don't think you were dead and have any sight into the human knowledge book. Mainly because i don't know anyone that has died for a week or a year and came back saying 'i got a great story to tell'.

So i'm agnostic and l don't have a answer and I don't think i ever will because its not a point to think about.

Though with life experience I feel more turn from the power of free will towards 'god', than saying the 'there is nothing after this life, this is one time chance'.

Also i really don't like the word God. Its one word with thousands of descriptions to say millions of views might say.

I don't know where i stand with the word 'God'

I do know however where my spiritual life stands.. for the most part. It is to stay focused on it. On this planet Earth id think.. 'God' is several steps away time after a human life on Earth.

 

I made it very clear that I don't hate anyone for their beliefs. I just hate what those beliefs have led many people to do or how they have negatively affected how they view certain things/people/feelings. Not just violence or hatred between eachother, but also the self-hatred that comes from, for example, the bible referring to homosexuals as "abominations". Not only does organized religion start wars and incite hatred, but it makes many people feel like they're somehow unworthy or inferior. To live your life based on a set of rules and guidelines from a book written a couple of thousand years ago is to deny your humanity and individuality. Live life with your own morals, instead of doing or not doing certain things because you don't want to be punished in the afterlife. IMO, all that matters in life is to smile as often as possible, and to help others smile when you have the opportunity to do so.

lol Yeah, I'm sure it's much different in the UK. Especially considering I live in the southern U.S.. I'm the only atheist I know IRL. lol Nothing but christians in Georgia, it seems.

 

I don't see how the concept of reincarnation escapes my idea. Clearly, for there to be any meaning to it, that which reincarnates has to be conscious, and be capable of existing independently of the body/brain. Maybe some people could argue for a 'soul' which is not conscious, but the question then arises as to what is the point of reincarnation? According to most views on this with which I'm familiar, the soul is forced to reincarnate because of a universal law of karma to which it is subject. Both Hindus and Buddhists who are the main groups who believe in reincarnation share a view something like that.
For Hinduism in particular, the 'soul' is the principle of consciousness.

 

Cool. I agree with that.

 

That is a question that is oriented for the believers, regardless of whether science could prove that consciousness is generated by the brain.

I'm not too familiar with what the beliefs are in how reincarnation operates, but I thought it was something along the lines of an instantaneous transfer of soul from one organism to another, so I don't see what consciousness would have to do with it necessarily.

These kind of issues are at best just interesting to ponder anyways imo. Scientific research, particularly in the area of the brain, is often stunted by having to go through ethical committees and some of the would be research into some aspects of consciousness, probably require longitudinal studies. For instance, with football season going on in the US, there is always the issue of concussions raised, as besides the immediate impact of these injuries, there are other effects which tend to manifest much later in life. This has led to former football players suing the league and such. Surely if a researcher intentionally inducing head trauma to patients would incur lawsuits as well, even if they could get approved from an ethical committee.

Don't get me wrong, I think ethics on scientific studies is a good thing, however it probably limits the amount we can learn and thus we have to rely on inference a lot as opposed to definite causation, which leads the door open for various viewpoints, regardless of how ridiculous they may be. Seems to be a double edge sword.

 

They can send a man to the moon.. but they can't make a pair of stockings that don't tear.

 

They can land a man on the moon, but they can't make a hose connection that doesn't leak.

 

I don't hate religion, nor am I fishing to find evil opressors out there. I just think religious people are pretty pathetic. I pity them, more than anything.

More pathetic than the religious, only the...atheist. Who are super dogmatic and religious about their little lefty talking points. So, I am an atheist who can't stand atheists. I might even prefer dealing with the religulous.