ban school nativity plays

That's not really the point - yes, kids indoctrinated into other faith traditions can sit out of the indoctrination into our faith tradition, in a "you can have any colour as long as it's black" kind of way. We are failing those kids by not teaching them philosophy, just as we are failing the kids who get taught reams and reams of christian doctrine by christian re teachers...

 

But you can't then cut it out completely, it is such a big thing that it cannot just be forgotten from school education. I doubt it is so much the re teacher than the curriculum, yes the teacher can put their own swing on it, but overall it needs to incorporate a wide range of faith, which I have experience of it doing, you can argue otherwise. So what would you want to happen? No Christian teaching at all? Can we really say that that would be for the best? At least there are moral values being taught among all things. I don't want children to grow up being forced into religion - that isn't the point, but I don't think that it should be faded out because some people don't agree.

 

Read the thread, that's not what is being suggested at all, by anyone...:tongue:

 

i think if plays about christ are presented from the historical perspective and not the religious, they should be ok to do in school, its not his fault they made a religion out of him

 

it must be very embarassing...

 

Well don't suggest we change our christmas traditions then.

Nonsense sunshine there is loads of muti-cultural teaching in the school agenda.

We're talking about year 6 children here aren't we ? And yes Eastenders, kindly tell me where else life choices are debated and answered for the masses.

You know thats what I'm saying myself no-one is indoctrinating anywhere really, some teachers are good some are bad, religious studies educators can often be people with a need for faith structure to support them and therefore not often the jolliest of souls, but religious education by normal teachers in junior school is fine.

 

Yes, in some places I do not doubt multicultural education is done well, but in many places it is still very much a case of "religious education" in the christian tradition with some mentions of the other faith traditions to fulfil curricular guidelines, read Iluvmusic's recent experiences of religious education as a British Hindu in this thread. To blithely assert that the opposite is always and everywhere the case, and to superciliously state that "nobody is indoctrinating anyone really" is an innaccurate and aloof see-no-evil way of avoiding pretty much all of the valid points raised in this discussion...

While it is still "religious education" and not properly contextualised comparative religious studies, we are failing large proportion of our young people and failing one of the hallmark tests of a modern secular society, the necessity of a practical separation between church and state as a matter of principle.

Somewhat flabberghasted at the suggestion that your conception of philosophical parable and discussion comes down as a straight choice between the Bible or Eastenders... I assume you haven't read anything by Dickens, the Brontes, Wordsworth, Orwell, Joyce, Defoe, Austen, Kafka, Golding, Greene, Conrad, Wilde, Swift, Shelley, Eliot, Kipling, Stevenson, Homer, Browning, Shakespeare, Sophocles or Lawrence (to pick a few names at random from my bookshelf), that you have not ever seen any television or film adaptations of any works by those authors or original television serials or films for children or heard of any of the ideas from thinkers like Freud, Descartes, Locke, Hume, Kant, Jung, Rorty, Heidegger, Plato, Aristotle, Wittgenstein, Hegel, Kierkegaard, Rousseau, Paine, Wollstonecraft, Nietzsche or Mill?

The content of Eastenders would be very low down on my list of ideas to include in a philosophical discussion or to use as a philosophical parable, the very idea frankly suggests a somewhat startling lack of imagination...

Discussion of the parables or foundational ideas from any one work of any one of the figures listed above would serve equally, and in many cases better than the Bible for stimulating discussion of some of the key ideas and moral principles of our society. The Bible needs to be studied as one faith tradition based on one ancient work of literature, not inculcated repeatedly, year after year, lesson after lesson, christmas after christmas, as a source of answers - let alone the source of answers - which is the undeniable experience of very many people in the education system today.

The point about indoctrination and hegemony is that it is invisible, it's something we do without thinking and without knowing that we're doing it. The responses denying that indoctrination ever takes place or that it is not a problem for the state to bring children up within a faith tradition - or to deny that this is what is happening - very clearly demonstrate that this is the case. To think clearly and deeply about the issue of the inculcation of these doctrinal ideas and ways of thinking is what we owe our children and the future of our society. To refuse to think about the issue or deny that it is important is a very dangerous failure.

 

i dont know who said it but someone said something along the lines of

"teenagers have already made their minds up and are not as easily influenced"

well thats not strictly true. Where i live theres alot of teens that are easily influenced because they dont have such an easy ride. E.G i remember in yr 8 (so two yrs ago) a girl in the year above us (so she wouldve been 13) was caught getting drunk and giving a 6th former head... not to mention the millions of girls that are quite openly sluts. The kids without proper parental support.

I know that what they teach me wont affect me because i have my parents, i can see what theyre doing, not all of them can, they are vunerable... it'll be a peice of cake to get them converted.

though maybe not with my re teacher because he HATES smokers and well alot of them are smokers. hes not afraid to voice his opinion either.

 

Oh do climb out of your ivory tower, go and present that list to the parents at your local primary and actualy see how much of the population read that stuff, then ask if they saw Eastenders. I detest the show but don't refuse the reality of its influence on the moral behaviour in our society just because it is common.

Of course someone should state the opposite to your assertions that all christian teaching is force feeding because as I say again it isn't. You want it all black but I'm afraid other people should know that it is not, I am not arguing black is white and you shouldn't assume I have a diamtric position from you because I have a disimilar perspective on the matter.

I'm debating the principles with you now, how and why are you trying to accuse me of lack of ability to think on the matter, confrontation for its own sake methinks.

 

Many of the authors on that list are very widely known if only through television adaptations (just as Bible stories are mainly known second hand), have a look at your christmas Radio Times and you'll see Dickens plastered all over it in prime time. It is preposterous to claim that the only philosophical ideas or moral fables people have access to are Biblical stories on the one hand and lowbrow soaps on the other.

Even so, nobody is arguing that we should abandon the teaching of philosophy and parable and leave children to get their ideas from TV. Quite, quite the reverse is being proposed. Again: it is of key importance that we teach moral philosophy, introduce a wide range of ideas, remove the doctrinal bias which plagues our religious education, and firmly ground students in critical thinking and evaluation of the ideas they will encounter. The notion that the only conceivable alternative to the inculcation of christian teachings is an abandonment to popular culture is another ludicrous misrepresentation of the issue which ignores or misunderstands most of what has been said throughout the thread...

Nobody is suggesting that all teaching of christian ideas is force feeding, that would be an absurd thing to claim... There is an obvious qualititative distinction between the uncritical inculcation of such teachings and their properly contextualised critical evaluation.

 

i wrote a half assed thesis on a story i'd read once (the penal colony) by kafka. saved my ass on the AP test. whew.

yeah, i read all that crap, my dad was an english professor and dramatist. didn't make me any smarter or make me think that religion was ugly.

 

Don't pretend naevity either you know that is exactly what you imply and your claim to be otherwise is a very false one.

urinal extraction now, shame on you really, snobbery maybe ?

 

Read the thread........ what else would I do?

I think I can guess what your answer would be!

 

Yep, that's it, everyone is out to convert! Can't teachers teach a subject because they enjoy it? If they were trying to evangelise you would definately know - it would be hell, sin and Mark all round!

Yes homelife does play a big part in the way we grow up, just as the media, friends and school. But not everything we see or hear will make me behave or believe in a certain way. Someone might have a group of friends who all drink/ do drugs doesn't necessarily mean they will. Just as someone who has an hour or so a week of RE, perhaps a play once a year, or hears a few christmas carols is not necessarily going to change their life plan and become a preacher. I mean everyone on here has said they remember christian teaching at school - but I don't see a room full of Christians, do you? So that must mean that it does not brainwash everyone it comes into contact with.

 

Well, I can only sigh and assure you I implied no such thing In fact I wrote several posts in this thread in which I talked explicitly about the value and importance of learning from Biblical parable, so quite where you've gleaned this strange misinterpretation of what is a nuanced and considered position, I really don't know. I think people largely see/read what they want or expect to see rather than being open to looking at and thinking about what is actually there when it comes to some issues. *shrug*

 

yes, i would think so, can't go do anything without everyone bothering you for salvation

 

Oh dear now the wounded soldier ploy, poor misunderstood me, fluttering your eyelashes as well I would imagine. I deal with that tosh daily and it don't rub.

You continualy use terms in dicussions about religion that are derogative, brain washing, force feeding, indoctrination, child abuse etc. etc. etc. These are the terms that colour your argument and people react to that not the bland offers of nuanced parable interpretation, until you drop that terminology I am forced to defend the christian viewpoint even though I am no christian.

Returning to that long list of names you gave earlier may I state that all those people will have been raised in an environment of stronger religious beliefs than our offspring are now, I'd like to suggest their childhood religious teachings actualy enabled their minds to think philosophical thoughts, without god being suggested by others they may never have explored the possibilities of existence.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

 

Again, that's not at all what is being suggested, and nobody is suggesting that things are worse than they have ever been, plainly we have it much better and have far more room for free thinking than at any point in the history of our civilisation, but this is not to deny the pivotal importance of this principle - it is an incredibly important issue - and we should all be concerned for those many who still fall through the net and receive the kind of religious education which stunts and stifles open-mindedness and critical thinking. This is not a small point.

The issue is the importance of providing the best opportunity for the largest number to have the capacity to see beyond doctrine and to be open learning new ideas. On this our society still has a long way to go

I think I'm repeating myself here and people seem to be arguing against not what is being said but against what they imagine to be being said or in some unfortunate cases attacking personality rather than engaging with ideas so perhaps this thread has run its course. It's been really interesting though with good points raised on all sides. It has made me think

 

I thought this thread should have gone about 12 pages ago!

I haven't said that they are worse than they are ever been, just stating that people here have all had some experience of religious education, be it good or perhaps not to good, but it hasn't managed to convert them!

I know that people can go quite crazy with religion and admit that that is not for the best. I'm a bit better now, I only go to church 4 times a day :tongue:

I think it has come to a time when everything is being repeated here, and has been getting rather heated, which isn't good for anyone - come on guys it's christmas (or winterval!!). Let's all be friends for a couple o days, then start a new thread for some more debating!

Oh by the way, Lithium - still don't agree with you!!!