Bible Questions? III

lol whatever.......Bayern Munich are in the Finals! I will be routing for them!

 

If those who lived before the time of Jesus are awaiting resurrection, how did Elijah and Moses appear with Jesus during the transfiguration?

 

Who are the "gatherers of the harvest?" Why are there "few?" Why should we pray for more of them? What is the "harvest?"

 

The transfiguration was a vision.

 

A vision of what? Do you mean the transfiguration didn't happen, it was a dream?

 

I vision of Elijah and Moses appearing with Jesus or are you asking what it represents?

The transfiguration happened but Elijah and Moses only appeared to be there, but since they are dead they could not have been there in reality.

As for whether it was a dream, maybe.

A vision is a sight or scene presented to a person’s mind by day or by night, usually through other than ordinary means, and sometimes while the recipient was in a trance or was dreaming. (Ac 10:3; Ge 46:2) It is often difficult to establish a clear demarcation between visions and dreams described in the Bible, and at times they are combined.

When a person received a vision from God during waking hours, it appears that the impression was made upon the conscious mind. The vision could later be recalled and described or recorded by the recipient, in his own words. Some persons, such as Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, also had nocturnal visions, or ‘visions of the night.’ These seem to have been impressed upon the subconscious mind while the recipient slept.

 

So is there something specific about the text that leads you to this conclusion, or is the conclusion based on the premise that because they are awaiting resurrection, Elijah and Moses could not have been there.

I remember that you used this instance to account for the saying that there were some there who would not taste death before they see the son of man come in all his glory. So yes in addition, what do you think this represents?

 

How much of the story might have been a dream? Was Jesus even there?

 

Most people when trying to understand what a Scripture says, limit themselves to just the Scripture in front of them. One must understand that the whole Bible must be taken into consideration to understand any one Scripture.

In this case some other Scriptures that must be taken into consideration is that Jesus himself called it a vision at Matthew 17:9 And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”

Also that God said that the punishment for what Adam had done was; For dust you are and to dust you will return.(Genesis 3:19) and that the Bible says; For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6)

It would also be good to take into consideration that the Bible promises that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Ac 24:15. which would be hardly necessary if they were already alive.

As Moses and Elijah were being separated from Jesus, Peter, “not realizing what he was saying,” suggested the erecting of three tents, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. (Lu 9:33) But as the apostle spoke, a cloud formed (Lu 9:34), evidently (as at the tent of meeting in the wilderness) symbolizing Jehovah’s presence there on the mountain of the transfiguration. (Ex 40:34-38) From out of the cloud there came Jehovah’s voice, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Lu 9:35) Years later, with reference to the transfiguration, Peter identified the heavenly voice as that of “God the Father.” (2Pe 1:17, 18) In the transfiguration, evidently Moses and Elijah represented the Law and the Prophets, both of which pointed toward and were fulfilled in Christ. Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.—Ga 3:24; Heb 1:1-3.

The apostle Peter viewed the transfiguration as a marvelous confirmation of the prophetic word, and by having been an eyewitness of Christ’s magnificence, he was able to acquaint his readers “with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2Pe 1:16, 19) The apostle had experienced the fulfillment of Christ’s promise that some of his followers would “not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Mr 9:1) The apostle John may also have alluded to the transfiguration at John 1:14.

Jesus told his three apostles: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Mt 17:9) They did refrain from then reporting what they saw to anyone, apparently even to the other apostles. (Lu 9:36) While descending the mountain, the three apostles discussed among themselves what Jesus meant by “this rising from the dead.” (Mr 9:10) One current Jewish religious teaching was that Elijah must appear before the resurrection of the dead that would inaugurate the Messiah’s reign. So, the apostles inquired: “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus assured them that Elijah had come, and they perceived that he spoke of John the Baptizer.—Mt 17:10-13.

The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.

 

Some critics have endeavored to class the transfiguration as simply a dream. However, Peter, James, and John would not logically all have had exactly the same dream. Jesus himself called what took place a “vision” (Mt 17:9), but not a mere illusion. Christ was actually there, though Moses and Elijah, who were dead, were not literally present. They were represented in vision. The Greek word used for “vision” at Matthew 17:9 is ho′ra·ma, also rendered “sight.” (Ac 7:31) It does not imply unreality, as though the observers were laboring under a delusion. Nor were they insensible to what occurred, for they were fully awake when witnessing the transfiguration. With their literal eyes and ears they actually saw and heard what took place at that time.—Lu 9:32.

 

But in any case the vision was the culmination vision from previous prophets prophesying the Messiah. God is proven to exist for both mind and matter, as descended to earth the mental word of things to come for human interaction, and the physical being of in the image of God man always was.

 

Actually it says their eyes were heavy with sleep but they were kept awake.
Jesus speaks many times of sleep as opposed to death, the little girl and Lazarus on one account were not dead but only sleeping. Despite the fact that Jesus said this people still believed that he "raised from the dead." This sleeping is exactly the dream of death and separation I was referring to.

 

First what does this have to do with the transfiguration?

Second, you take what is said out of context and try to make some kind of point that was never intended.

(John 11:11-15) He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz′a·rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.” Therefore the disciples said to him: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.” Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: “Laz′a·rus has died, and I rejoice on YOUR account that I was not there, in order for YOU to believe.

Yes, death is like a deep sleep that one can be awakened from but death is not a dream.

 

It has to do with your comment that they were fully awake.

Actually it is in the context of the whole bible.

Physical dissolution is a fact. Physical death is a life event, part of living. He is the God of the living not of the dead. The dream is of separation, of sin, and of death. The dream is you are separate from God, that you are separate from God because you sinned. The dream is that you physically die because of sin, that you are unworthy. This is mans judgment of himself. Judge not lest ye be judged. You will experience the full measure of your own judgment. We cannot believe what we refuse to behold.

 

So who are the "laborers of the harvest" and why should we pray that there be more?

 

Sorry I thought we were talking about the transfiguration and not sleep.

Well you did ask me to tell you when you "string together disjointed paraphrased Scriptures" that "contradict what the Bible is actually saying" well you are you stringing together disjointed paraphrased Scriptures that contradict what the Bible is actually saying, again.

 

If that is your take you are welcome to it. What I describe is the alpha and omega or the entire picture of the bible and it's relevance is the way our experience as human beings is conceptually couched.
You will not deny that you have the knowledge of good and evil, and for this reason your sin remains.

 

Still pretending you have a clue what the Bible is about, I see.

 

Do you have a take on the question who are the laborers of the harvest and why should we pray for more of them?

If darkness is what you see, is the light or seeing in you, how great the darkness.

 

Yes I do, why do you ask?

Which are you trying to say?

(Matthew 6:22-23)“The lamp of the body is the eye. If, then, your eye is simple, your whole body will be bright; but if your eye is wicked, your whole body will be dark. If in reality the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is!

(Luke 11:34-36)The lamp of the body is your eye. When your eye is simple, your whole body is also bright; but when it is wicked, your body is also dark. Be alert, therefore. Perhaps the light that is in you is darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is bright with no part at all dark, it will all be as bright as when a lamp gives you light by its rays.”

Or are you just trying by your paraphrasing, to take a meaningful Scripture and make it meaningless?