Bible Questions?

What do you consider salvation and being saved to be, how do you define them and from what are you saved?

 

A question I asked of you. You might have missed it. What does your exertion look like?
Being created in the likeness and image of the creator means we are endowed with the same creative capacity. We do not create in a manner unlike our creator. We create in the likeness of our own images. These images are mental pictures of the world which are fleshed out or given substance by our descriptions or the words that we use. God said let there be light. What ever you claim for yourself, that thing is given you. If you would claim that there is evil in the world, then that claim is met by the perception of evil, and that you choose for yourself you also choose for the world.
The narrow door is singular focus, singular request, singular attention for the kingdom of God.
We cannot avoid darkness. Darkness has no substance. Darkness is the apparent absence of light.
The human eye can detect a single photon, and where there is light there is no darkness.
If the eye be sound then the whole body will be full of light,
but if the light in you be darkness, then how great the darkness.

 

The word used for exert can also mean agonize. So if we look at another example of the rich man who asks Jesus "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus says give all you have to the poor and come and follow me. Then the man went away agonizing, because wasn't willing to do it.

The narrow door can also be thought of as the way to life so it's a journey that begins with the foundation of a relationship with Christ. He turned people away because he never knew him.

The formula in all the examples is essentially the same. Drop everything, then come, pick up your stake/cross and follow him.

 

Edit:

old stuff, moving on...

 

I contend this not because it offends me, but because the evidence shows otherwise.

I am not going to use the cliche "he wasn't a real christian", but from what the evidence shows he was greatly influenced by Old Germanic mythology and other "occult" practices.

I have no doubt he used the Church for his own good, and that some priests and bishops became swept up in the mass hysteria that slowly and slilently crept into Germany during that time. Hid beliefs had nothing to do with being or not being a Catholic any more than Stalin's slow starvation of 6 million Ukrainians has to do with him being Communist, Atheist, or Georgian.

 

It all comes back to a intimate relationship with God. I'm saved from anything that causes me to be apart from him. So my obedience stems from this relationship as opposed to trying to obtain this relationship. Like Jesus didn't think God was something to be grasped, but emptied himself and be came a servant and refered to God as "abba".

 

It sems like everyone and their uncle answered this, So I picked my favourites.

As the First Letter of John tells us, God is love, and our love (even that of husband and wife) comes from God. You cannot love and not know God.

Some have taken this to mean that there are two kinds of love, true and non-beliver love. I contend that any love is an experience of God. An atheist, Hindu, Muslim, or anyone helps another person (i.e. is altruistic) they are experiencing God's love and letting it flow from them to another human. That is love.

Fear, as used in the phrase "fea of the lord" is probably best rendered (to understand) as a trembling respect. Think about it--we believe there is a God who weilds basically unlimited power over us and the Universe. That is pretty amazing. I'd be a little afraid. the scholar Rudolph Otta says: the numinous experience has two aspects: mysterium tremendum, which is the tendency to invoke fear and trembling; and mysterium fascinans, the tendency to attract, fascinate and compel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numinous

You are not afraid like a horrow movie. (insert God doing scary things joke here)

I've said it before. The Christianity is not an easy religion. People usually make it like it is. Just say "I love you Jesus" and poof get into heaven free card... NO!

Jesus, rather than making the Law easier or erasing it, on occasion made it even more hard to follow faithfully (whosoever looks at a woman with lust has committed adultery)...

Selfishness, Self-Worship, often dressed up for religious reasons (like why any mention of Israel doing something is anti-Semetic, but Palestinians were taken from their land for no real reason other than politics they had no control over).

I'd like someone to show me where in the Bible it says that the Bible is the source of morality, especially you Sola Scriptura types...

The bible may have written a moral code, but the moral code is written on our hearts. Even Adam and Eve had morality. They knew what they did was wrong, and they were ashamed. Even though we have the authentic morality written on our hearts, we still need to develop a conscience, which comes from many sources including our own experiences. We should not violate our own conscience, but that does not mean what we choose is necessarily right. We may find out later that it is wrong.

My basic summation of my moral theology:
1) I am not a relativist, there is an absolute good and evil.
2) All humans have morality written into their "hearts".
3) We have to learn what is right and what is wrong.
4) Evil is anything that hinders or stops authentic human development (of oneself or others).
5) The Bible is not the sole authority on right and wrong, for it does not contain whether checking weather reports is evil or not (Theoretically, it is bad because they are making predictions--even if they are informed by science. They do not say "It will be sunny today, God willing", but simply affirm the sunniness of the day. Heretics)

 

Being saved is a process...

I am just throwing that out there to see what bites

 

If you think of the start of a Christian life as being born again or dying to sin and becoming a new creation then being saved is a one time event, but that doesn't mean that we don't grow. As Paul says Christ is the foundation for our salvation then we build a house of good works on that.

 

I was brought up nothing in particular. We had "Jesus books" when I was a kid and liked Noah's Ark because of the animal pictures. In Jr High and High School I became very interested in religion, especially Eastern Religions, especially westernized ones like ISKCON and Baha'i. My beliefs were esshttp://www.hipforums.com/newforums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=6063787entially the Bah'ai beliefs. Most of my friends were christian, with many being the hand-raising, evolution denying, Catholic hating crowd.

I do not know exactly how it happened, but it began when I basically had what could be described as an "identity crisis" although that is not entirely correct. I began solely praying to Jesus (I had before also prayed to Krishna...). When I began my foray into the christian religion I didn't really know much, and if you find thread in this forum (Christianity that is) started by "Burbot" (that's me!) they can be quite funny...
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=51901&f=88
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=77445&f=88
http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=86890&f=88

I was even anti-Catholic: http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showpost.php?p=1200676&postcount=10 this one deserves a Jack T Chick "Haw Haw Haw"...

Anyhow, I read and read and read and eventually became convinced that the Catholic church was right. I was almost Eastern Orthodox though. It was honestly the dogma of the Pope as the head of the bishops that convinced me. That is really the only major difference between the two.


The End...

 

We are saved from judgment. "For judgment I have come."
We are saved from heavy labors and anxiety. "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest."
We are saved, pure and simple from oppression. "The truth shall set you free."
Nothing "mysterious" here.

 

But can we fall from our "saved" state?

If we do fall, then are we saved again?

every time I go to confession i am saved. When I was married i was saved. When i was baptized, then when i was confirmed (about 10 minutes later) and then every time i receive the Eucharist am I not getting saved?

2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.

Romans 5:9-10 paul writes that we will be saved (in the future). This indicates a process, not a one time deal.

 

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But the[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]n, he decides to become a Christia[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]n agai[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]n. He asks for forgive[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]ness for his si[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]ns a[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]nd for worshipping Hi[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]ndu gods, a[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]nd I believe if he is true to his word he will be saved agai[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]n.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] [/SIZE]

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that "once saved always saved" is a dumb theology.

My point was that 'being saved" isn't a singular event. It is a lifelong process that is more than a mystagogy, or deepening of the faith.

My question there was purely a rhetorical device. The Bible speaks of salvation in the past present and future tense. I believe that salvation is a process. Yes, I was saved at my baptism, but I was also saved when I went to confession and when I was married.

 

Consider Romans 11

17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

The only way we can fall from our saved state is through unbelief or complete loss of faith and no relationship with God. It is not through our actions. Our works are just the fruit from the relationship. If a person has a true relationship fruit will naturally follow.

The Bible says that God's mercy is greater than our sin so I wouldn't assume once fallen that we couldn't be grafted in again although I wouldn't want to test him.

We are saved from many things due to our relationship, but what we do does not save us more. This is growth and showing us how he's working in our lives. So when Paul says "we will be saved" in the future he's speaking about our salvation from other things not becoming more saved. We already have the solution in Christ.

 

Okay let's say that it's agonize and exert and let's say that the word at Luke 13:24 is the same as the word at Luke 19:22 as you seem to imply.

In what way does the agonizing done by the rich man relate to that of the agonizing to be done to enter the narrow door? Agonizing does not mean putting faith, does it? In which case, even agonizing is an action, is it not?

Why then did Jesus not just say; only with faith can one enter the narrow door, instead of saying; ""agonize" to get through the narrow door"?

In your formula every thing is an action, drop, come, pick up and follow none of which is in of it's self faith. By your own formula you appear to be saying faith without work is dead.

 

Interesting. So when it says at Matthew 10:22 And YOU will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved., does that mean we have to wait till the end to be saved from anything that causes me to be apart from God?

 

Yes, because God is love, we can not experience Love without experiencing God.

And yet this is what most "Christians" in the world today believe Christianity to be, a feel good religion, if it makes you feel good, it must be Christian.

Don't ask me, I already said that the Bible is not the source of all morality, although it does teach us how to be moral.

 

It's all old stuff!

 

I agree.