BNP leader Griffin on Question Time tonight

If Griffin were to bring up the kind of "double standards" and hypocrisy that you tried to imply here, with no evidence at all for such hypocrisy other than the attitudes of other members of the race/religion or the actions of the individual's ancestors, he would indeed be attacked for prejudice because that's exactly what it would have been. You automatically assumed that Jack Straw was a racist hypocrite on no other basis than that he is Jewish, having no idea about what his own attitudes are about 'mixed' marriage. What's that if not obvious evidence of a prejudiced assumption based on religion or race... You've written some absurd bullshit on here in your time jonny but that has to take some kind of biscuit.

 

At least a Jammy Dodger I'd say

 

lithium part of being a Jew is a racial identity its not just like being a Christian or muslim which are religions that seek converts from everyone , if you read the old testament you see jews committing genocide against non jews thats how they got Palestine in the first place ,they see them selves as a chosen people and part of that is based on race .

you could say that zionism is a modern example of a similar mindset working today

one of the reasons jews have been persecuted and driven out of most of the places they settled including the uk where they were entirely driven out assimulated by force or killed during the middle ages was this racial identity that they insist on keeping .

so it would be a pretty fair question to ask any jewish person who attacks a racist whether they apply anti racism in their own life and in regards to Judaism .

Im not out on a limb pointing out that there is jewish racism you have a number of jews or people from a jewish background including holocaust survivors who would support what Im saying and they find the racial purity aspect of the religion worrying as well as the way jews have traditionally viewed non jews or goyim and shiksa

 

You're tainting individuals with attitudes held by people other than those individuals. As liberal politicians of a centre left party I would personally regard it as rather unlikely that Jack Straw and Harriett Harman are racist bigots as you suggest, and you're implying they need to answer to this charge purely on the basis of their racial or religious heritage and ancestry, not on the basis of anything they themselves may or may not believe. This is the very definition of a prejudice Jonathan. What don't you understand about that?

 

well if they put down that their Jews and Jews have a many thousand year old history of valuing racial purity disowning people who marry non jews ,and separating themselves from the non jews gentiles or goyim so they would be less likely to marry non jews .
I would think it would be quite natural for them to be asked what their views are on mixed marriages are .
especially as they are in politics, and especially when they bring in laws that oppose racial political party's or when they attack racists

if you say your a member of a group that has a certain view traditionally like say the Klan or Judaism why shouldn't people ask what you believe

 

Clearly you have every right to ask what they believe and they have a duty to tell us as elected representatives. It is quite right and proper to find out what Jack Straw's views on marrying people of different religions would be. It is a wholly different thing to assume his views will be racist or hypocritical based entirely on his racial or religious background. This is exactly the kind of lazy essentialist fallacy on which Nick Griffin bases his misguided logic. It's really not hard to understand, you are conflating two quite distinct issues: 1) what a person believes and 2) what a person's ancestors believed. Why do you find this simple distinction so hard to grasp?

Secondly my cultural or ethnic background may make me more or less likely to behave in certain ways, for instance being English I am more likely to marry an English person than someone from Mozambique, but it would be utterly ridiculous to suggest I am demonstrating nationalism or racism in my choice of a partner should I do so, or that it necessarily means I will oppose English people marrying people from Mozambique. These are trivially false assumptions...

 

saying you are a Jew or a Christian or a Muslim or any religion is saying you are associated with that group .
much like griffin was asked whether he was a member of the klan he said yes but a less violent branch, people laughed because the klan has a history of racial violence and they didn't believe he could be a member of that group without being associated with racial violence .

what difference is there in stating your a member of a religion that is associated with racist views and the klan which I think also links itself with religion as well as racism .

lots of people dont know or think about jewish based racism directed towards non jews or the religions supremacist views, so they dont think when he says Im a jew this man has just associated himself with a organisation that has thousands of years of history of being racist and racist violence , so they dont have the same thoughts as if he had said yup Im a member of the klan but not a violent branch .

look up the terms goyim or Jewish racism or racism in the talmud .

not all religions have a great history of racism I attack islam for example but its not really that racist of a religion anyone can become a muslim in fact they try their best to convert you

 

your analogy between you and marrying a person from africa doesn't really hold up, jews have a tradition of living in different parts of the world and mainly marrying other jews .

so lets say your parents lived in africa and you were still white after 2000 years because all your ancestors had just married white people when you were surrounded by black people I wouldnt put that down to chance .

its changing in the uk and you get today a lot of mixed marriages but traditionally jews have just married jews.

 

Are there racist, xenophobic, bigoted or otherwise backwards sentiments or traditions in Jadaism? Yes clearly, as with all the main religions. Does someone being raised as a Jew mean they have chosen to associate themselves with racist ideology? Obviously not. You choose to be part of a movement like the KKK because of your beliefs, whereas you are brought up within a religion, ethnicity or culture whether you believe all of the tenets of your forebears, none of them, or some of them. Judaism particularly has a strong tradition of non-believing or dissenting members, the faith being as much a cultural identifier as a religion.

You can continue ranting all you like about the racist elements of Judaism or other faiths or cultures and much of what you say will be true, but this is still totally irrelevant to a prejudice about an individual's beliefs on a certain issue because of how, where, or by whom they were raised... Why are you having such trouble with this very simple concept?

 

does it matter that someone is raised to believe its right to say stone homosexuals or that they choose to join a group that chooses to stone homosexuals they still accept that belief.

if I was brought up as a morman or I converted to mormanism it wouldnt make much difference to my beliefs if i stayed in the church I would be accepting the outlook of the church .

if jack straw rejected his religion and said I see these racist views at the core of being a jew I leave that would be Id say perfectly honourable of him , I left my religion I wasn't born in it I joined when i was 8, but joining at 8 is similar to being born into it.
if Id stayed in there are certain principles that being a morman included I couldn't be a morman and believe in smoking, or sex outside marriage, or that homosexuality was fine, its not up to personal whim .

 

So in your view it is not possible to be Jewish and not racist?

 

unless you publicly disassociated from the racist basis of being a Jew no I don't think it is possible , there are I suppose degrees of racism but belonging to a group that believe they are gods chosen people and part of that is racial is Id say racist .

Thats why I see it pretty ironic that lots of jews are involved in anti racism or that they got attacked by the nazis because its hard to find a group of people that have kept themselves so segregated .
I'm not having a go at people believing what they like if a group of people want to keep separate pah I don't care, but if members of that group attack other people who believe in keeping their group separated I think thats double standards .

its hard to find a group of people who have been expelled from as many country's as the Jew's , well over a hundred country's including the uk which had no Jew's living here from the early middle ages to the time of Cromwell this has happened not just in the Christian world but all over the place where they have settled .
there was racism against the jews but also they tried to keep themselves seperate that seems to be their history .

 

So all Jewish people are racists by definition. I wish you'd said this at the start, I wouldn't have wasted time trying to reason with such a palpably misguided view, which has quite a lot in common with the flawed essentialist reasoning of the BNP and the prejudices which follow from such faulty logic. Have a custard cream. Jonny you are literally a mentalist...

 

nope not all jews are racist ones that disassociated themselves from the racist elements of the religion arn't racist.
you get jews who have written books critical of racist parts of the talmud many who are considered ultra secular but are still fond of aspects of the jewish tradition

 

But you assume that they are all racist unless they've made some kind of special effort to convince you that they're not first...That's what you're saying here. That jews are basically racist. Just to be clear. Have a hobnob
I too am white European from white European parents who had white European parents, and so on. Curse my inherent racism

I do see what you're trying to say Jonny, but I see that Jon is right too. You have no basis whatsoever for assuming anyone is racist simply because they are Jewish. It's not as simple as "I'm this label and we all believe exactly this" (it would be easy if it was, I know) and I don't think Jewish people should have to try and convince those like you who automatically assume they will be racist. A person's individual character isn't defined by what their ancestors believed or did as has been said

Ironically we're supposed to be talking about Nick Griffin here...

 

Well we sort of are; Jonny's prejudiced assumption about an individual's essential or inherent qualities based entirely on their race or religion is exactly the same trivially false reasoning which underpins Nick Griffin's entire outlook...

 

True indeed Jonathian, true indeed. Now I want biscuits

 

wow, reading this thread has made me soo angry!

firstly i can't beleive how thick you acctually are johhny that you can't get very simple concepts into your head and the distinction between them. i also hope that you realise that from everything that i have read in your posts you are either increadably ignorant or a complete rasist yourself who is values anti-semistism! you acctually discust me and my God you seem like a complete arse hole!

anyone who could even say that anything to do with the bnp or there ploicies to be right or ok is just ignorant or rasist. i was acctually really shocked when they got nearly 1 million votes and quite discusted that so mnay people acctually went to the slightest effort to vote for such a repulsive political party. my only hope is that those people who voted were just ignorant and when the time comes again they have acctually educated themselfs enough to know hat voting for the bnp is wrong. however, i do beleive that they have a right to voice their views as everyone has that right though i hope they get publicly humiliated and slandered in the process which i think happeded during question time!!!

on a final note immigration into the county is a very positive thing. to stop it altogether would be very detrimental to the country!

 

I'm under the impression that to be racist is to be against a certain race. Jews don't condemn anyone as far as I'm aware. Nick condemns anyone who isn't 'pure'. There's a massive difference between the Jewish way of life and the opinion of a dodgy politician who gained a seat threw fear and frustration. It wasn't just white people who voted for the bnp. Why is it thar we're discussing the fundimentals of the jewish faith? They are brilliant at coexistence...it's all other races that seem to be behind.

 

Jonny is not as ignorant or racist as these views make him appear, but well, he does have some absolutely insane and painfully misguided ideas on a variety of topics...