Breaking a lance for the TRUE Americans

let me put up a different theory. if what you say that characterises the ppl of our times represents an unbending truth of human nature then why is it that love still exists and ppl can evidence quite the contrary behaviour as they frequently do: giving freely in emergencies and disasters, sacrificing their lives for others and so on? even building hospitals and schools counts as a kind of practical love. so could it be that these evil qualities speak more about the times we live in then they do about 'human nature' itself? i know it's unfashionable among the hard heads but i do believe that arcadia in some form or another did once exist at a time when things moved much slower than they do today and when benign and bountiful behaviour was as common and natural then as evil and violence are today. things evolve, for better or worse. but whatever the circumstances, you always have got free choice and will power to rise above it or to sink in the mire. it seems to me that's the truth of human nature.

 

I am 1.75% indian i want my damn money...

 

Nice theory in it's own context but you totally missed the point of what I said.

I was speaking historically and anthropologically about how Native American tribes were like 400 years ago. They weren't fluffy, hugging, all-loving nomads that spread ooey gooey goodness whereever they tread.

I also never claimed that they weren't as kind and loving as they were violent and hurtful. I was simply dispelling the romantic notion that Native Americans were ethereal, peaceful, people who valued sharing and never thought of land as theirs and never took more then they needed.

Hate and violence,as well as, love and kindness transcends all races,religions,ethnicities,gender..ect..ect. It has nothing to do with evolution of emotions or human behavior.

There is no good without evil, no love without hate. Humans are not that complex, I mean were are pretty complex, but not as deep as some pretentious philosophers would like us to believe.

I don't think people are any more violent or more loving then we were 500,000 years ago. I think we just over-analyze our nature too much nowadays.

 

well you didn't have the caveat "as well as love and kindness" in your first statement:

and this was what i was responding to, what u wrote. can't read your mind yet but i'm working on it.

i didn't claim they were either, so that's two of us.

how do you know?

 

They were the first people on the continent and they established nations long before the Europeans came. Evolvement is a constant process and every generation is a tiny particle of evolution. So yes, the Indians did evolve there. Especially since they had to adapt (evolvution = adaptation) to a whole new environment.

Besides, dates for the first colonisation of the continent are currently being revised from either around 10 000 years Before Present or 30 000 BP to over 48 000 years BP. That was before the first Homo Sapiens Sapiens had spread through all of Europe. A lot can happen in 48 000 years.

Anyway, whether someone evolved somewhere or not shouldn't be any reason to take their land away from them.

No, I wasn't claiming white people are more 'evil' than the Indigenous people. Cynical Otter and the others addressing that point are right on that one. But they aren't less evil either. My point is that they are and were equally human as 'us'. That's the main reason why, again, the Europeans had no right to claim America for themselves, nor to dictate where they should live, let alone to kill them.

If your grounds are being trespassed by people who show no respect for your rules, think they are superior because they misinterpreted a (fictional if you will) book and that therefore they are allowed to take your land and do with it (and your people) as they please, wouldn't you fight them?

On the genocide thing: I didn't mean 'genocide' as in from one day to another deciding to wipe them all out. But when within two hundred years since the first contact only a percentage of the original indigenous population remains (in the nineteenth century the number was among the tens of thousands as opposed to the tens of millions in the fifteenth century), yes, I call that genocide.

 

There are in total only seven *profitable* Indian-run casinos.

But yes, the casino (the name slipped my mind) run by the Pequot IS the most wealth-generating casino in the whole of the US. Big bucks for them, not for most of the rest.

 

whoa! tens of millions? got a source. I've seen numbers ranging from 1.8 million to around 12 million indians in NA. They dont have any idea how many died. Also, most died to disease..hardly genocide.

 

Disease given to them by the europeans. Some of this disease given to the indians on blankets intentionally... sounds like germ warfare to me.

 

got evidence it was done intentionally? It is one of those beliefs that is always passed along, yet trying to prove it is far, far harder.

I've found nothing showing any conclusive evidence. In fact, the only mention i've seen of it was in a letter sent between british military personnel suggesting that they "could" do it. Hardly conclusive evidence.

Do you have conclusive evidence?

 

Best I can find is on BBC, doesn't say much more than what you did. But apparently the british used smallpox to regain control of Montreal back in the revolutionary war...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/coldwar/pox_weapon_01.shtml

I'l be honest, I'm not in the mood to sift through google results looking for something conclusive from a reliable source. If you want to call me wrong, I dont really care, but blame the schools that taught me that.

 

The misstreatmnet of native people was a huge concern in america in the mid 18'00's, the most popular dime novels was a series called "the plight of the indians" , there were native americans in the goverement and big buisness, ask yourself before you judge , when did indians get the right to vote? to own land?. People do seem to love drama dont they, Buy hey if you saw it on tv it must be true right? sure there were atrocities,on both sides, treaties made, and broken. Btw .. today we use every part the animals we kill, and pushing 500 buffalo off a cliff to eat a few seems cruel and wastefull

 

People are so sick of this argument, however, I think I will put in my two cents.
Native people did get the shaft, and in a lot of places, still are. There are some rich reserves who have cashed in on the whole casino thing, but there are A LOT of poor reserves. There is not much opportunity on these reserves, in Canada and the U.S. As a Canadian, I feel that it is our Country's job to help the poor, not just Natives, but white people, black people, whatever, and help them better their situation.
I am also a native, and I live on a reserve with MANY poor people who have horrible situations. A lot of my family has worked hard to get ahead and to better their situation, but when we leave the reserve, we are still often treated with racism. I do believe that it is getting better for native people, but there is still a ways to go. I think after years of being pushed aside, and having all these crazy prejudices about them, Native people have to work pretty hard to get ahead and be successful. I think it will just take time and support. And no, not monetary support, who ever that was who said "Where's my money?" That's hurtful.

 

"So live your life that fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no man about his religion; respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. Always give a word or sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, or even a stranger if in a lonely place. Show respect to all people, but grovel to none. When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the light, for your life and strength. Give thanks for your food and the joy of living. If you see no reason to give thanks; the fault lies in yourself. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Live you life so that when you sing your death song, you will die like a hero who is going home with no shame to meet the Creator and your family."
Tecumseh "Shooting Star of the Shawnee"