Brexit

OK the petition is still on its way to 6m (at time of writing its 5.852 but still active and rising).

But the thing has been interesting to me has been the map that goes along with the petition, it show the votes in certain areas of the country. The colour changes from yellow to red in relation to the percentage of voters that have signed the petition in that area.

The hot sport at the beginning where – London, Oxford and Cambridge, Brighton, Bristol, Exeter, York and Edinburgh. This says to me university town’s places where you will find a lot of educated, young and internet savvy people.

The red has now spread out to cover most of the south of England including in the south west that mainly voted to leave. Not surprisingly Scotland has turned red but not so much Northern Island which voted to remain in the referendum. But a lot of the country is still beige.

(in the time it took me to finish this and post it the petition has gone up by 6 thousand to 5.858,000)

 

It's good to see so many signing, but unfortunately it looks like the government, or the sick joke that passes for a government in these times, seem set to ignore it.

A mixed blessing that May says she's going to resign as PM soon - I wonder which of the motley crew we'll have imposed on us next? None of the candidates look at all promising. May will go down as about the worst and most ineffective PM in history (so far). A petty minded, hypocritical little englander with absolutely no values other than personal ambition and a tribal devotion to what she sees as the interest of her own deeply riven 'nasty' party. She has achieved nothing in her time in office other than to increase division and frustration and empower the hard right of her party, whilst shredding the last vestiges of any reputation Britain may once have enjoyed abroad. A complete incompetent who got way out of her depth.

We seem to have a political vacuum forming in this country. Corbyn seems to me to have lost it - I think he's loosing support with each passing day, especially among young people who are overwhelmingly in favour of remaining in the EU. It's hard to see where they or anyone else can go. The Greens would be my own choice, but I think that's unlikely to happen en masse at this stage. Lib Dems? Hard to see them regaining credibility after their coalition with the tories. Who knows, maybe Labour will redeem themselves and come out for a second referendum or revoking article 50 at the 11th hour. Even if they didn't get it, at least it would mean they had put up some resistance to this hard right tory led nonsense that has brought us to this dismal place.

 

I'm not saying the BE and the EU are the same people.

I'm saying that the support for one empire over the other, is by the same people.

 

I don’t know why but this brought to mind the Oscar Wilde quote “It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear a fool than open it and remove all doubt”

I honestly don’t know where to start here as the comment shows such deep ignorance of history and politics that it would have to involve so much explaining that I know 6 will never take any notice of because he is ruled by his prejudices and bias rather than historical and political realities.

6 it might be better if you go away do a bit of reading up on the subject before posting and then you will not come across as so fooling and ignorant.

 

Bill

The Lib Dems made the biggest political blunder and throw away all their political capital when they decided to go with the right side of their nature (capitalist economics) rather than with their left wing side (social and political progressive reform).

To me that was the start of the backlash against neoliberalism that nobody noticed or clocked.

We had two neoliberal parties the hard Tory neoliberals and the neoliberal lite of New Labour people wanted to send a message that they didn’t want any form of neoliberalism so they voted that one time for the Lib Dems hoping they would break the cycle.

I’m not saying people understood what they were doing but I think many people just ‘felt’ things were not ‘right’ and wanting ‘it’ to change.

But as I say the Lib Dems went with their capitalist nature and got married to an even harder form of neoliberalism than had gone before. So those that wanted change didn’t get it and felt deeply betrayed.

So people began flirting with thinks like UKIP or stopped voting, it is the same thing that happened within the labour party members ‘rebelled’ against New Labour to bring about change but instead they got Corbyn, now those that wanted change are again feeling betrayed (a common chant amongst left wingers at the peoples votes march was ‘where’s Jeremy Corbyn’)

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As a one-time Green Party branch coordinator I really don’t know why they are not reaping more advantage from all this especially with the wonderful Caroline Lucas been so prominent in the fight.

But I don’t think many people outside of Britain (or many in it) realise how dominated we are by wealth, the rich own the media (and have successfully cowered the BBC into been so ‘balanced’ that it has become unbalanced) and so the rights agenda is promoted everywhere and a poor political party like the Greens hasn’t the resources to fight back. The power that allowed the sustained assault on the 'evil' EU has also been used to ridicule the Greens as useless lentil eating hippies while happily covering up Tory blunders and things like UKIPs casual racism.

 

The members of parliament had 8 options and they all lost, but from what analysists seem to be suggesting is that many MP’s where ‘gaming’ the votes as they were not taking the very seriously (which just shows what a bunch of wankers we have in parliament).

We already know May’s deal lost heavily but…

Here is a list of the voting on the differing choices

John Baron’s no deal motion (B): Ayes 160 – Noes 400

Nick Boles’ Common Market 2.0 motion (D): Ayes 188 – Noes 283

George Eustice’s EFTA and EEA motion (H): Ayes 65 – Noes 377

Kenneth Clarke’s customs union motion (J): Ayes 264 – Noes 272

Jeremy Corbyn’s Brexit motion (K): Ayes 237 – Noes 307

Joanna Cherry’s revocation motion (L): Ayes 184 – Noes 293

Margaret Beckett’s public vote motion (M): Ayes 268 – Noes 295

Marcus Fysh’s preferential arrangements motion (O): Ayes 139 – Noes 422

So top three are

Customs union

The Labour deal

Peoples vote

With the People’s vote getting the biggest support (while still not passing) with second having a customs union ("permanent and comprehensive UK-wide customs union with the EU") which is basically abiding by the EU rules while not having a say over what those rules are, which is a mishmash that is basically a wish list that would mean beginning negotiations with the EU again.

I’d say the next rational and sensible step would be to force MP’s to vote on those three with the introduction of a Single Transferable Vote or Alternative Vote system to bring about a majorities, by taking account of MPs' least-bad outcomes, rather than the ones they actively support.

…what I think might happen is that May will once again try and push through her deal using the People’s vote outcome as a threat to the hard leavers - a bad deal that can be a step toward the Brexit they want being better than letting the people vote again but this time knowing how much the leavers lied to them.

 

57 varieties of brexit

Hard Brexit. Soft Brexit.
Wave-your-arms-aloft Brexit.
Quick Brexit. Slow Brexit.
Eat-it-on-the-go Brexit.
Smooth Brexit. Rough Brexit.
Creamy-powder-puff Brexit.
Damp Brexit. Moist Brexit.
Putting-Britain-Foist Brexit.
Fat Brexit. Thin Brexit.
Bear-it-with-a-grin Brexit.
Sliced Brexit. Ground Brexit.
Decline-of-the-pound Brexit.
This Brexit. That Brexit.
Hold-on-to-your-hat Brexit.
Black Brexit. White Brexit.
Shove-it-in-your-pipe Brexit.
Ant’s Brexit. Dec’s Brexit.
What-is-coming-next Brexit.
Which Brexit. Why Brexit.
Big-bus-with-a-lie Brexit.
Rich Brexit. Poor Brexit.
What-was-life-before Brexit.
Wet Brexit. Dry Brexit.
Makes-me-want-to-cry Brexit.
Broke Brexit. Bruised Brexit.
Clothed Brexit. Nude Brexit.
Doomed Brexit. Dead Brexit.
Can’t-get-out-of-bed Brexit.
Brave Brexit. Weak Brexit.
Despair-by-Clinique Brexit
Tim Brexit. Pam Brexit.
Why-is-there-no-plan Brexit.
Bruised Brexit. Broken Brexit.
The-People-Have-Spoken Brexit.
Arthouse Brexit. Absurd Brexit.
Just-think-of-any-word Brexit.
Sponge Brexit. Punk rock Brexit.
Flip-flop-hip-hop-chip-shop Brexit.
Donald Brexit. Brexit Brexit.
Brexit-Brexit-Brexit Brexit.

 

Caroline Lucas comes out of this looking like one of the very few honest ploiticians we have. I'm also impressed by the tireless campaigning of Andrew Adonis, whom I saw speak on brexit a few weeks back. Pity his party aren't of the same mind. But this issues cuts across party lines.

Of course it's not only the BBC that promotes a right wing agenda, but most of the UK press, as you and I know well. To what extent people outside Britain appreciate this I don't know. My view is that the media have an undue influence to say the least. In a sense, the papers are the ones who choose the govt, and have chosen brexit, not the gullible readers.
The problem is there are IMO deep psychological issues implicated in all that, as well as the fact that our dumbed down education system is failing to equip people to think for themselves in a critical way.

 

They are apparently terrified of real democracy when the odds aren't stacked in their favour.

I expect we'll now see the interests of Britain's people and future even further subordinated to a grubby little power struggle among the tories to see who will replace Maybot.

 

Completely wide of the mark. and actually irrelevant as the empire is no more. Only old folks can reacall even it's dying phases.

Also I woud not support the empire but certainly do support the EU as is the case with millions of other Brits.

 

Bill

Yes I would wish that people do even a small bit of study before commenting on something but 6 seems to think that because he’s read ‘Atlas Shrugged’ he is an expert on everything.

But it’s the kind of mixed up thinking I've gotten when talking to ill-informed non-British people about Brexit (and some Brits).

So to people looking in I’d be happy (as I’m sure bill will be also) to explain things

Let us take one thing here

One thing I get is that this is a left / right thing when it’s really not, yes the right wing media seem to be all pushing for Brexit but they are only pushing the interests of their wealthy owners and a small number of ideologically driven neoliberals, but beyond that many on the right think Brexit is madness.

Yes a large number of people voted for Brexit but many were conned by the lies of the wealthy media owners and ideologically driven neoliberals who were selling them a unicorn and have been telling them for years that the EU was at the bottom of all the problems they had actually caused.

There was for example a belief that we were going to get a huge Brexit dividend that would go toward refunding our crumbling NHS and social services, when the reality was that the defunding of these institutions had nothing to do with the EU and all to do with the policies pushed by the very same media barons and charlatan neoliberal politicians that want Brexit so they can defund the NHS and social services even more (so they can privatise them).

These people have also been groomed into the belief that Brussel bureaucrats are imposing unwanted and malevolent regulations when actually the regulation the neoliberals want get rid of are ones that protect normal people workers’ rights, health and safety, environmental and so on - that they could not get rid of if we remained in the EU.

The lie convinced many that were normally of the left to vote for people who had a neoliberal agenda that even many of the right didn’t support.

 

What I’d want to do is bring in mandatory lessons from 10 years old and continuing through secondary schooling on media scrutiny – that teaches people about propaganda and the techniques used by the media and other types of lobbying entities to promote certain viewpoints and on how to spot them and find out if they are correct.

It would point out the political bias of newspapers (wesites etc) and that they may have agendas.

How there is a difference been objective news reporting and biased reporting.

Show how to fact check

It would take news items and subject them to scrutiny to see if the report is been bias to fit an agenda.

*

In the neoliberal model of education too often education is about hitting targets so it becomes about ‘teaching to the exam’ – simply accepting knowledge that can be repeated to get a result, which doesn’t have to be thought about or the implications of which are examined.

If that is how someone is taught it can become how they think and they can come for example to just accept what their ‘news’ paper says without ever questioning it and can become uncomfortable if a view they have come to accept as ‘truth’ is questioned.

 

Such irony

 

Sorry mate but that just doesn’t work, 'irony' the wrong word in the wrong place

You might want to brush up on your English, like knowing what words to use, you could start by buying a dictionary and then there are a lots of online courses for all ages and abilities

Here is something form the BBC

BBC - Schools Ages 4-11 - Literacy Sites

 

So this is the day that we were meant to be leaving the EU 29th March, I said earlier in this thread that I thought that the EU would fudge it so we didn’t crash out and here we are with an extension, but I think EU goodwill is fading I heard that polling in the other EU countries has gone from sympathy and a wish we wouldn’t leave to just wanting us gone.

Thing is that we have no deal because any deal is worse than what we have and I think the majority of Britain’s (mainly the English) have now come to realise that.

May has split her deal in two – Part One that might just get some support and Part Two which hasn’t got any real support.

Parliament is to vote on Part One tonight and vote on Part Two ‘sometime’ later. If Part One gets the vote we would have a ‘blindfold Brexit’ with all the difficult decisions about the future relationship with the EU been kicked down the road, possibly until after the U.K. has already left. Meaning more confusion, more uncertainty, more rancour and since May will step down as Prime Minister if it passes a Tory leadership battle.

What I’d call a right royal fuck up.

 

Yeah we should just get out
Lolled at EU goodwill that's delusional

 

Mal

Have you noticed how much of a nothingburger you are you don’t seem to have any thought or opinions of your own and can’t even defend the ones you link to.

It’s all rather sad and pathetic

Have you got anything, really anything of substance to offer?

 

Ha ha nothingburger is that really an insult ?
The EU will be as fucked as you seem to believe we will be in the event of a "no deal" don't give me that goodwill story !
Yeah I am a nothing to you but a nothing with a mind of it's own ! Not a sheep like you poor fuckers that fall for the scare tactics
Anyway you don't need me here this thread is for you pair to feel sorry for yourselves because of the outrageous decision forced on you by the stupid public with a mind of their own !!

Debate my arse !

 

Mal

LOL well your arse is what you seem to have been using to converse so far so why stop now.

But seriously all the stuff you bring up has already been covered

Nearly half of all UK trade in goods and service is with the European Union. While less than 10% of the EU 27 member states’ trade is with the UK.

Yes both sides are going to be hurt but the UK would likely to get hit a lot worse – also while the Tory’s have been pissing around the EU has actually been preparing (realistically) for a no deal exit. Some have even seen it as an opportunity to take work away from UK based businesses, or suggesting UK firms move to their (EU) cities.

Someone with a mind of their own usually can show that by been able to debate (and defend) their ideas in a rational and reasonable way, so far that has been lacking in your case. Your latest reply been another example of that.

I don’t think all of those that voted for Brexit were stupid I think they were manipulated and conned by those that didn’t have their best interests at heart. However I do think those that carry on holding on to views that they cannot defend in any reasonable way seem rather closeminded and rationally challenged.

 

For the Dutch, Brexit is a mistake – and a big opportunity by Johannes de Jong

The Dutch are determined to go even further in actively chasing UK-based companies and trying to get them to move to the lowlands. The Netherlands has had some success here in snapping up the European Medicines Agency, which will bring its 900 staff to Amsterdam when it relocates [from the UK] next year. As many as 250 UK companies are also reportedly being wooed by the Dutch government; already 42 British firms – good for nearly 2,000 jobs – are set to make the move across the North Sea, according to an economic affairs ministry report. “In 2019, several companies, including Discovery and Bloomberg have already announced their intention to invest in the Netherlands because of Brexit,” the report claimed. The UK’s best and brightest are being welcomed with open arms.