We're supposed to look to what Paul wrote because his writings are specificly directed towards those of us in the Body of Christ. To Paul was revealed the mystery which had been kept secret since the world began (Rom 16:25; Eph 3:9; Col 1:27). To Paul was given the "house rules [or the administration or the dispensation] of the grace of God" (Eph 3:2). And Christ entrusted Paul (not Peter) with the Uncircumcision Gospel (Gal 2:7) which is distinct from the gospel message Christ entrusted to Peter to proclaim to Israel. So, yes, we rightly look to what Paul wrote on any given subject because in his epistles we can find an answer or some guidance on a matter.
Oh, and btw I wasn't judging you. I was pointing out that the energy wasted on topics like Abortion, Homosexuality, and the like could be used to feed more people and to make this a kinder place. Which is something Jesus said to do.
No we're not. Not by Jesus or Paul anyways. Where in Matt 7:1-5 does He say anything like that? There's no requirement to be or become sinless in order to judge in the passage. Only that you remove the log from your own eye. Again, Matt 7:5 says [size=+1]Matthew 7:5 "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. [/size] There's clearly nothing about sinlessness there. You are inserting the requirement of sinlessness into Jesus' words because you judge that judging is wrong, which is completely hypocritical. Are you serious? I just explained why! I'll explain it for you again. Its a FACT that John 8:6 says that the Pharisees did what they did in an effort to trap Christ, so they could have something to accuse Him of. If Jesus followed the law that HE gave to Moses, then they could have taken Him right there and started the process of having Rome crucify Him. The following passages plainly tell us this. John 8:6 This [the Pharisees] said, testing Him, that they might have something of which to accuse Him. [size=+1]John 18:31 Then Pilate said to them, "You take Him and judge Him according to your law." Therefore the Jews said to him, "It is not lawful for us to put anyone to death,"[/size] Jesus gave responses like this to get out of jams at other times as the these passages show Mat. 22:15-22; 21:21-27; Mark 12:13-17; Luke 20:20-26 Jesus is teaching how to judge RIGHTLY. Here is what He said. [size=+1]John 7:22-24 "Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. 23 "If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? 24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."[/size] Its clear that judging rightly is a good thing that we are to do. Its still a pretty safe bet that if someone thinks its OK to murder babies, then they are not to be considered as a member of the Body of Christ. Do you think Jesse Jackson is a member of Christ's Body? Even though he claims to be, I don't think he is. No its not. In this context Jesus is talking about obeying the Mosaic Law which includes laws like You Shall Not Murder. And Paul confirms that we must judge within the Body of Christ (1 Cor 6:2-5). And I am talking about sending people to Hell?? What makes you think I am? All I have said is that all I have is your claim that you are a member of the Body of Christ and that I cannot know with any certainty if you are a member of Christ's Body or not. Understand what I am saying now?? See, this is what the liberal nicer-than-God types start doing once they realize they are losing an argument - they start claiming that the other person is saying that they can send them to Hell. How incredibly ridiculous! I have read the chapter many times. And I realize that God has forgiven several adulterers BEFORE He forgave that one (David, Gomer). What occured in John 8 does not at all mean that Jesus did not want to see the law against adultery upheld and justice carried out. In fact, Jesus criticized Israel for not executing children who curse father and mother as HE commanded Israel to do in Ex 21. Do you know where in the four gospels Jesus rebuked the Jews for not obeying "the commandment of God" by executing those who curse father or mother?
Yes you are judging me. You can't come to grips with the fact that you are judging that I am wrong for judging which means you're a hypocrite. You can't assert that I am wrong about anything without judging. Wasted on abortion and homosexuality!? Talking about right and wrong, good and evil, is NEVER a "waste of time". I will continue to feed people by feeding their minds with big servings of truth. Here is another big serving of truth for everyone to enjoy. Feast on truth HERE.
"Born homosexual"? OK then. I was born homophobic. God created me this way. Its good and should be celebrated. Let's have a parade for those like me who were born homophobic Pedophiles claim that they were born pedophiles too. There is absolutely no evidence that anyone is "born gay". The research shows that the essentialist argument is bogus. Check out this article on the erosion of the essentialist argument due to recent research http://www.narth.com/docs/essentialist.html Check out the large amount of articles on the subject here http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html Quinn Olinger Director Northern Indiana Chapter Survivors www.myspace.com/SurvivorsIndiana
Who creates a man with the desire for another man? Who creates those willing to kill, who do not think twice about doing so? Who is it that hardens our hearts? Who is it that softens our hearts? You judge abortion by worldly standards. Do you truly believe that a soul dies upon physical death? You claim 1/3 of our generation has been lost to abortion. Who has lost them, God? The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. ....... And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
My girlfriends mom has an irrational fear (phobia) too. She freaks out when she sees moths. She went to a shrink about it and he (or she) couldn't do anything for her (she might have seen several). She still wigs out when she sees a moth fluttering around (it's sorta funny, except she is terrified). Don't know if anyone can help your homophobia. I used to think it was icky, but I basically think most sexual things are icky, so that's not such a big deal. Farts are gross too, but as long as they don't scare you, they are pretty funny. Actually, come to think of it, I used to be scared of lots of stuff, and now I'm not because I know God is with me. Laugh at fags, don't get all crazy high stepping nazi about them. Remember, love your enemy, and then do gay stuff with them. Are you a pedophile? Are you gay? Is there anything that can make you this way (besides God)? Seriously, you can't just decide to be gay. I mean, if you could, wow. I just can't get over the idea of anal sex. It's gotta be so stinky! I did it by accident once (to my girlfriend) but I don't remember because I was wasted. Creeps me out thinking about it, which is really stupid because changing a diaper is nothing, and I've picked up rat turds with my bare hands before, so it's not that big of a deal to get poop on your dick. It's actually a little bit funny, but you probably don't have a sense of humor. I bet fags do. However, there is plenty of evidence that people are "born stupid". Hey, when do people become gay then? And how do they become gay: is it their hormones or social pressure? Like, what makes a girl horny for a guy? Is it just part of her make up, or does she decide to do it? I know that I see some girls and think "wow, she is hot" and other ones I look at and think "no fucking way" but I'm still nice to them. Totally biased and ignorant. Even the rhetoric is shabby. Hey, at least you are sorta hot looking. I doubt I would ever let you touch me though, unless God made me.
What he was saying here was don't go around judging people unless you have everything in order. Do you have everything in order? I don't. I doubt anyone you know does. All have fallen short. What else could it mean? Jesus is talking about whether or not people should decide if he was the Messiah. It has little to do with pointing a finger at your brother and saying HELLFIRE. To judge also meant to discern. He's telling people to look at his works and tell him he's not the messiah. Little to do with calling homosexual sinners. Oh, and by the way what does Jesse Jackson have to do with this? If he made mistakes and sins he has the power to be forgiven just like you or I. He has also done quite a bit to help people. More than most people do in their lives. Paul was talking about law. He thought if Christians went around sending each other to the clutches of judges who didn't particularly care for Christians it could cause problems. He wanted Christians to handle such matters between themselves. It's written very plainly. If you are judging someone you are sending them to hell. You've just argued this fact with me all over this thread. Please stand by your statements. BTW Did you read the verse I sent you on not calling someone names? I don't think you did. Oh, and Jesus did not command Israel to kill kids for not listening to their parents. What are you talking about?
No, I am not Judging you. Not once did I say you are not a Christian or call you names. I can discern without judging. In a Christian sense these are two very different thing. Maybe you just don't understand semantics. Great. All these people hungry all over the world. They need a heap of TRUTH to stop their families from passing on do to hunger. Very nice.
I find this all to be very entertaining. Christian's can't even agree on what the bible is saying, hence the multitude of denominations within christianity and this argument we are having here. I think any christian needs to recognize that they have no idea who exactly they will see in heaven. A christian's job certainly isn't to go around proclaiming who they think deserves heaven or not, but to set a positive example of christ and god to the world in order to being more people to him. I myself am very well studied in the bible. I don't know what translation "chance" here is using (seems like NIV or a newer translation of the like) but KJV is my speciality, it's an older translation that doesn't even mention the word "homosexuality" or "homosexual." (but don't start posting me up verses here, i kow exactly which ones in KJV are used to justify this hate of homosexuality as well.) I also am familiar with the biblical actions and words of jesus, and I have to say that they never came close to the behavior I am seeing displayed by some of the members here. I think it is also fair to say that many would have thought as jesus as a peace-loving liberal at the time, he rubbed elbows with the underbelly of society and did not judge, but cared for them. The only time we saw his wrath and harsh words is when he confronted the pious Pharasees of the temple. He had no harsh words, only loving ones, for the prostitutes, drunks, and theives. What I see here is people with an already created perception and then searching for bible verses to match it. Should the bible fit your ideals, or should your ideals fit the bible? I mean, I could justify stoning my child if I wanted to use the bible for that...should that be how a holy book is used, to fit our perceptions and convienence?
Ahh the good ole' pedophile argument. Never heard that one before. Okay, let me break it down like this. Have you ever known a homosexual? From birth they act this way. Some come from Christian homes. Some come from atheist homes. Some come from Leave It To Beaver homes. Some come from Broken Homes. They are homosexuals. Plain and simple. They hurt no one out of the act of homosexuality. Pedophiles HURT children. See the difference? It's not the same thing. Some people are born with one leg. Does that make them pedophiles? Some people are born with a gift for art or literature. Does that make them pedophiles? Some people are with blonde hair. Does that make them pedophiles? Your argument has absolutely no validity.
Sera, it's been going on for ages. People are told by other people what the Bible means. Very few take an open mind when reading it.
Ok, I appreciate that you actually cite the specific passages you're using (most don't) but you should realise; all the passages you quoted are attributed to Paul, so basically your point could be summed up; "We should listen to Paul because Paul told us to".
Lesbians often refer to their deathstyle as "a lifestyle choice". Homos claim they were born that way, fomos claim they've chosen it.
It could and certainly does mean that you are to remove the log from your eye FIRST, and THEN help to remove the speck from your brother's eye. In other words, it means exactly what Jesus said. Jesus is telling us HOW to judge rightly. He is not telling us to do something that we cannot do. No. I use the word "judge" the same way Jesus uses it in Matt 7:1-5 and John 7:24 and the way Paul uses it in 1 Cor 6. Neither Jesus or Paul or I are saying that when you judge someone "you are sending them to hell". You won't even find that given in the definition of the word judge anywhere. Only nicer-than-God alleged Christians define the word "judge" as "sending a person to Hell". HAHA!! That's not what I said. What I said was children who curse father or mother are to be executed and Jesus criticized those who did not obey that "commandment of God" which is a command that He gave. Since you couldn't (or wouldn't) look for the reference, I'll give it to you here. [size=+1]Matthew 15:3-8 He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 "For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] a gift [to God" -- ] 6 'then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 "Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: 8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with [their] lips, But their heart is far from Me.[/size] [size=+1]Mark 7:9-12 [/size][size=+1] He said to them, "[All too] well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' 11 "But you say, 'If a man says to his father or mother, "Whatever profit you might have received from me [is] Corban" -- ' (that is, a gift [to God),] 12 "then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 "making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do."[/size]
Paul told us to, Peter and the other apostles recognized that Paul was sent to the entire world and so did the Holy Spirit which confirmed it. Also, Paul's epistles make up most of the New Testament.
So you mean to tell me that you are perfect and sinless enough to pass judgement on other's? There isn't a speck or a log in your eye? Jesus was making a very good point, and not just that you shouldn't judge unless you are perfect yourself. He is also very plainly saying that if you are concerned with specks in other's eyes than you surely have a log in your own. A log in the eye is much more blinding then a speck, wouldn't you say? He is making a comment about how blinded the type of person who would judge anther truely must be.
Homos reproduce by molesting children. Gay publications (like The Advocate) even admit this fact. They are initiated into the gay deathstyle by homo-pedophilia. "How many gay men, I wonder, would have missed out on a valuable, liberating experience, one that initiated them into their sexuality, if it weren't for so-called molestation?" -- Carl Maves (See the full article titled, "Getting Over It" in The Advocate, page 85.) The gay deathstyle does hurt people, it shortens their lifespans dramaticly on average and the high amount of sex partners gay men have leads to more STDs and more pain. HIV is a gay disease. HIV discriminates infecting gay men and those who use needles to inject drugs (though there are many gay men who inject drugs). San Francisco still tracks how many gays have AIDS because they realize HIV does descriminate. [size=-1]The health department in San Francisco reports that its the most homosexual major city in the world, as their heterosexual population decreases. One in five males above age 15 are homosexual, and 26% of them are infected with HIV. Hear more about this fact here http://kgov.com/bel/2006/20060410-BEL071.mp3 And again, lesbians openly profess that their lesbian relationships are "a lifestyle choice". You can hear this in a recent radio piece that appeared on NPR a couple weekends ago. [/size]
The imagery Jesus is using is very simple and easy to understand, but none of you nicer-than-God types seem to be grasping the significance of it. Here it is. When you have something the size of a small speck right on or around your eye it looks big, as big as a log because of how close to you it is. From a good distance, the speck on another person's eye looks like the speck that it is due to the great distance between you and the other person. Now you understand. There is no need to "become sinless" or to "be perfect" in order to judge rightly. If that's what Jesus meant, then He would be telling people to do something that they cannot do. ALSO, if that were true, then Jesus telling people to "judge with righteous judgment" in John 7:24 is a meaningless statement, since they wouldn't be able to judge rightly due to their not being "sinless" or "perfect" as you claim. My view makes sense. Your view makes no sense at all. And all I have, still, is just your claims that you are Christians. Whether you are or not I won't be able to know until after the Rapture of the Body of Christ.
