Christian God theme debunked.

MVW,

Well, I suppose it is possible that Jesus wasn't even crucified. But the crucifixion itself is not the questionable element in the story of Jesus. About fifteen years ago I was even more irreverent than I am today (honest to god!). I recall something I wrote at that time which offered an alternative explanation for the resurrection story. I suggested that, among the Roman guards, their were a number of Jesus sympathizers who secretly admired him for his fearless and staunch support of righteous ideals and his courageous demeanor when faced with his own physical destruction. After Jesus' body was put in a tomb and a large stone rolled in front of the opening, the sympathetic guards, along with some others, rolled the stone away, allowed his body to be removed, and then replaced the stone, knowing that the mystique around the event that would follow would enhance his teachings by magnitude.

Or, there were no Jesus sympathizers among the Roman guards, but plenty of civilians who hatched a plan to remove his body from the tomb by using the feminine charms of some of Jesus' followers to lure the guards away from the tomb long enough for the others to get the body out and roll the stone back in place, thus fulfilling Jesus' words concerning his post-death rising. When the tomb was opened and it was discovered that his body was gone, and the guards were questioned about it, of course they didn't admit to what had really happened; it would have been a death sentence for them. So, they made an agreement with each other to take their secret to the grave. I even submitted the idea that Jesus, knowing what would inevitably come to be his fate, instructed some of his more intelligent followers on how they might pull off the heist of his body.

Given a choice between accepting the supernatural explanation or these alternative explanations, I chose the alternatives. But that was then, and I'm different now . . .

. . . or am I?

 

Indy,

Besides having some genuine gems of wisdom concerning life on this planet, I see the Bible has a sort of history of the evolution of the relationship of man to deity.

 

As you do unto the least of these my brethren you do also unto me.
And these things shall you do and things greater than these

Your opinion has good reason however I would question the statement simply a man as man is quite complex and that complexity has yet to be fully apprehended. The feats alluded to are refined or super substantial applications of attention. By super I do not mean beyond natural but very potent. We are very potent and there are no idle thoughts.

A cult of personality is of the cult. It is what culture always does, creating heroes and villains that mesmerize, shiny things , whose proportions are grandiose and blind to the grandeur of creation.

 

You summated that if there weren't a crucifixion, Jesus would not have been useful. This, above, still does not negate the possibility of Jesus' usefulness apart from crucifixion.

 

Those ideas have been presently numerous times before, you haven't hit on anything new. They have also been pretty much debunked.

You honestly think any Roman soldier would risk being crucified themselves to remove his body?

All the disciples and followers did NOT believe or understand what Jesus was talking about when he told them he would "destroy this temple and rebuild it in 3 days" speaking of his body.
It is very evident from the writings available that his followers pretty much thought it had ended and that was it, so very unlikely that they would attempt to steal the body.


But then again, I imagine you think he was crucified on Friday and rose on Sunday.

 

Yes, NG, I said that I had written such things in the past. I made no claim to the original idea, though you are attempting to project that onto me. If you're hoping to show others what faith can do for them, you should be aware that your responses to the parts of discussion that are contrary to your own ideas are decidedly hostile.

And frankly, I find it comical that you can sit where you are and lay claim to what Jesus may or may not have said in private to his followers. You seem to be of the opinion that if it wasn't written in red in the Bible, then it wasn't said. That is rather naive, and indicates a worship of a book, don't you think?

But yeah, if you want to believe that some guy's body disappeared rather than accept a more measured and reasonable explanation, that's entirely your business, not mine.

 

All the same the events speak to a conspiracy whether divine or pedestrian. The whole story is a collaboration of many individuals.

 

Who made that decision?

He said it was clear from what is written. It is written of his disciples, there are many things you do not understand.

Our business is obviously to express the views we find significant to our overall well being.

 

Thedope,

I made the decision that his post was decidedly hostile. Why? Did you decide they were something else?

And yes, he said that it was clear from what is written. I contend that what was written is but a small part of the story which is open to speculation. I would think that that was clear from what I had written.

You are correct that "our business is obviously to express the views we find significant to our overall well being." You would also be correct to say that the expression of those views will surely invite challenge, especially when those views are based on hearsay about dematerializing bodies.

 

Well Storch you have as of yet to indicate that you actually know anything about the topic beyond pop cultural representations.
I didn't say a damn thing that isn't written in the New Testament about how the disciples reacted after the crucifixion.

Your strategy of wanting to debunk Christianity/Bible yet wanting to keep it restricted to opinion is more indicative of your lack of confidence in your position than anything else.
It's like you want to talk about cooking and what are people favorite recipes, but we aren't allowed to list the recipe or read any cookbooks.

One thing that is rather laughable is you thinking that you have debunked anything or achieved any type of validation for your opinions in this arena of Hip Forums.
Sure it's easy to apparently "win" a debate whenever the opposition is very strictly forbidden to actually say, write or quote anything to support their argument.
For a person to actually engage in a serious discussion concerning any Biblical topic at Hip Forums, they run the risk of being banned;

http://www.hipforums.com/newforums/showthread.php?t=232007&f=88

"There are now NEW RULES for this forum as a result of it being abused by fundamentalist Christian recruiting agents for their own agenda.

NO PROSELITIZING! We don't want to hear why WE need to follow Jesus. You like him, fine, keep it to yourself. We are not sheep around here, get used to it!

NO WITNESSING! We don't want to hear about your personal experiences with Jesus. We don't need to know how he "saved" you. That's not what this forum is about.

NO BIBLE QUOTES! Sorry but we don't allow spam on this site. Quoting over and over from some ancient text, is SPAM! You want to advertise a book, take out a banner ad!

Anyone not following these rules will be banned.

So what is allowed? This forum is for discussing the religion of Christianity, and its impact upon the world in the last 2,000 years, positive and negative.

You can discuss other elements of the faith, IN YOUR OWN WORDS. We don't need quotes. These forums are for FREE SPEECH, meaning YOUR words, not parroting the words of others.

Christianity has a long and horror filled history of repression of free speech, banning of books and intellectual and scientific thought, burning of witches, and intolerance of non-Christian ways.

Thus we cannot let this forum be hijacked by Christian missionaries whose goals are diametrically opposed to the goals of this website - primarily opening people's minds to NEW IDEAS and concepts.

Don't like these restrictions - Go somewhere else to peddle your wares! It's a big Internet, and we don't allow those who support intolerance and the suppression of Free Speech in any way shape or form!

Got it?"

So while you go ahead and continue patting yourself on the back for your brilliant insights , do understand it is hollow and pointless within the context of your audience.

Personally it is that overall general hostility towards Christians/Christianity expressed in every facet of this site that precludes me from wanting to engage in any in-depth discussions of Christianity. The majority don't actually want to learn anything about it beyond juvenile attempts at "debunking".

As I have said before, I wonder how long before you would get banned if you entered the Buddhist forums with such inflammatory and derogatory posts concerning that religion, it's founder, and the practitioners of it.
My guess is that it would be rather swift.
It is kinda funny the restrictions on posting any scripture, yet in the Buddhist section there are pretty much entire books quoted and posted.

So yeah Storch, go ahead and congratulate yourself for your glowing victory.

p.s. Indy, watch it with the Bible quotes or you may get the axe.

 

That scenario is even mentioned in the Bible. It was widely reported that the Roman soldiers guarding the tomb saw some disciples come and steal Jesus's body, but according to scripture the chief priests paid the guards to lie.

 

Well, NG, all I can tell you is that, in cook books, the result is something palatable--something digestible. That's the result of carefully chosen ingredients and the trial and error method to making something good.

You're wrong about my motive for debunking what I've debunked. It's a forum for debate. Also, I would submit that the lack of confidence in one's position falls squarely at your feet. You're here trying to resurrect the resurrection story because you believe I've knocked it down.

Also, I think you are forgeting that, in talking about something from two thousand years ago, you are dealing with hearsay. Whether you know it or not, all you are doing--if you are a proponent of the resurrection story--is giving your opinion that the text containing the magical account is accurate. That's OK. That's your opinion, and it's your business. I'm just saying that it is more likely that it is not accurate. That's why I told you to not make the mistake of believing that the Bible puts forth the whole story.

As far as the rest of your post, it sounds to me like you have a bone to pick with Skip, but have chosen me to vent on.

 

Monkey Boy,

Yes, I understand that. When I wrote about it, I took creative liberties and embellished it by including humorous dialogue between the pertinent characters.

 

This might be seen as Pop Culture, but have you guys seen the movie The Tomb of Jesus?

In what they suggest might be the actual sarcophagus of Jesus, there are skeletal remains.

But once again, does a physical body have to be physically present to appear to be physically present? I have the physical hair of an 8' bull elk that was in my backyard (even though I am miles from the mountains). It then left my yard and went into a Junior High school yard where the cops were called. The police, Game Wardens and animal control surrounded the school yard. A local News team got it on camera but then it disappeared. All the news report said about it disappearing is that the authorities were unable to catch it and hope that it found its way back to the mountains. The problem is the school yard was surrounded by the authorities and even if it could've snuck past them, the only way back to the mpuntains is through busy streets, shopping centers, residential areas, and so forth. There are not many places for an 8' bull elk with a full rack to hide.

http://www.9news.com/rss/story.aspx?storyid=362877

 

I don't know why? I view them as offered for consideration.

Yes but decidedly hostile is also hearsay.

 

No, in fact, there are many witnesses who could attest to the tone.

 

Yes---to be frank----I often had to laugh at the hostility portrayed---because you don't see that in other religious threads so much------animism for example...

Perhaps us heathens are too busy being influenced by the devil to argue with each other.

 

In life outside the forums, after giving my opinion, I'm usually asked what's wrong with me. I always answer: "Well isn't it obvious? I'm a heathen!"

 

Exactly so you don't need his contribution at all.

 

It is just that the devil has no argument with himself. Assertion and hostility are not the same.