Christianity, really?

Owb, do you have any comment on Luke 23:43 when Jesus says to the thief on the cross, "Verily I say unto thee, today thou shalt be with me in paridice.". "today" is in the present tense.

Does this not show that there is life directly following death?

 

I don't understand who you think Jesus is but no, he was not kidding them.

To Jesus her death was just like she was sleeping and he showed how easy it is for those who are dead to be resurrected, just like awaking someone from sleep.

And who was Jesus comforting when he said that Lazarus was sleeping?

 

If Jesus is God, then to God, the little girl was sleeping because to God there is no eternal death to those that he feels would want to remain inside of God.

Otherwise, him saying that she was sleeping would just be a cute kind of expression, equivalent to a mother telling their child that their pet hamster is sleeping when in actuality it's dead. But it would be different if God had said this, because to God the little girl was kept in his mind and wasn't TRULY dead as atheists tend to understand it. To God, the little girl was sleeping and I feel that he didn't say this to comfort anyone but was telling the truth as God understands that truth.

To be frank, I don't think that God cares about our definitions of meanings; He only cares about how he defines the truth because who better to know the truth than the truth itself? God will compromise to help us to understand that truth and may limit information to what we currently understand, but he would only use that common human understanding to express God's uncommon truth.

God is direct, the real deal, and always to the point.

 

Not dead but sleeping. Do not think words are being minced here. The only evidence we have for death is our active denial of existence based on the evidence of the dissolution of the body.

 

Jesus Christ, as most people get that he was a human being. He was also God

Thanks def, this is actually what I wanted to articulate, but couldn't.

What separates "truly dead" and "sleep-death"? Was Jesus only "sleep-dead" after his crucifixion?

 

We die, suffer, because we believe we are born of flesh. We are in the world but not of it. We are not born of the world, we are created by God. A deep sleep descended upon Adam. In that sleep began the dream of death, the separation of man. The making of a man unlike himself, initially both male and female, became Woman and in this dream man falls in love with flesh, and the flesh desires the man. Adam has yet to awaken. She is not dead only sleeping is not a cutesy thing to say, He means it.

 

"The only reason you have chosen a more likely scenario over a less likely scenario is because you have logic on your side!"
:coffee:

 

Well you're half right.

Well Adam and Eve are "truly dead" almost every one else is "sleeping in death". As for Jesus, yes he was sleeping in death.

 

without having both good and evil in the world how are we to experience and understand ALL!!
infinite experience................

 

Why are Adam and Eve truly dead?

What happened when Jesus was sleep-dead?

 

They will not be resurrected.

He was non-existent (dead) for three days and then God resurrected him.

 

Was Jesus a la Plato though? Was it physical or mental? Was his resurrection universally for all generations: i.e. mental, or was it physical for just those to momentarily reconsider the future on the basis of the past as St. John's indivldual worldly expectation? A mistake can refer the EXPECTATION for harmonic repetition.

 

Heaven and earth shall pass away but my words shall endure forever.

 

At the risk of sounding 3 years old...why will they not be resurrected?

Although we disagree on the "spirits in prison", doesn't that passage in 1 Peter 3 indicate that Jesus "did something" while sleep-dead?

 

What about Luke 23:43...

 

yes, what about that OWB? It seems to indicate that our Lord and the criminal will be together signaling an awareness after death. Or do you argue that it merely indicates that they will both be sleep-dead, completely unaware of each other...

 

Thanks Ukr-Cdn,

A person receives true death when that person commits the unforgivable sin; that unforgivable sin being the conscious effort to wage war against the holy spirit.

Someone who is in 'sleep-death' would be a person who does not wage war against the holy spirit. These ones can live a life in sin yet still remain righteous, helpful, kind, loving, even if it isn't omnipresent in their lives. These ones will be resurrected on a paradise earth to be given a second chance through the guidance of the elect. Through this, the resurrected will be transformed in soul and in mind. Their behaviors and their thoughts will move into God's ways and this will shed the 'skin' of the old ways.

Was Jesus only 'sleep-dead' after his crucifixion? In the light of Luke 23:43 it seems that he would remain conscious after his death. If this is true, then it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable to be perfectly honest. And the reason for this discomfort is the contradiction being made between what Jesus says and what the rest of the Bible says about death. I could be missing something here, so feel free to comment.

Although, I have been thinking that it's possible that the criminal would be one of those elect. We know from the rest of the Bible that God has heard the cry of those in Sheol and then rescued them, so perhaps God rescued both Jesus and the criminal and the rest of the prophets in the Bible, transforming their bodies into spirit bodies in order to enable them entrance into the third heaven (God's dwelling place). Perhaps they received their own transfiguration?

 

So then Sheol isn't unconsciousness, but something we posses as a part of ourselves lives on after/during sleep-death?

Couldn't Jesus be more fully revealing what God's truth is by stating "new" things about death. Even then, Doesn't Jesus' own death and resurrection change everything anyways? Prior to Christ's sacrifice, all souls went to Sheol (hence being something common). After Christ, Sheol has been closed (in that our souls are no longer bound to it as if by chains). We all still die, our bodies go to Sheol but our souls can be united with God's unlimited love.

 

Something living on during/after sleep-death does follow from 'God hearing the cry of those in Sheol', but what would that be? If it is a spirit body, an immaterial essence, possibly the 'breath of God' that was breathed into the nostrils of Adam [Described as returning to God after death], how then can Sheol be described as 'a place where thoughts do perish'? In other words, what is this cry that God is hearing if that person's thoughts perish? Could this cry be something else, I wonder?

If Jesus reveals more than any other before him, then what are we to make of the past prophets? Does Jesus simply reveal more through the changes that he produces or does he discredit the rest by becoming more? If what he says isn't at all new, then Jesus is merely doing the former of what I stated.

So what you are saying is that Sheol is a 'used to be state' yet no more because Jesus closed the door on it through his actions.

The main issue I have with this is the idea of eternal torment, and I bring this up because it correlates with this discussion. In a previous post that you made in another thread, you stated that it is part of God's love to create this separation. I know that God's ways are not our ways, but the idea that he is doing this out of love is difficult for me to accept.

Sorry for sound cras when I say this, but that is the equivalent to saying, "Hey man, I love you so much that I am going to keep you in never ending torment". I mean, to me, eternal destruction would be far more merciful than watching a bird that hit a side of a house twitching to death until it dies, but in the case for God's children, twitching for eternity. So instead of snapping that birds neck out of mercy, God decides to keep it there and feels sorry for it... Why not just snap it's neck?

Sorry if I am out of line with that one, but it's an issue that I have atm,

 

This "theology", is hopelessly complex and subject to constant revision. The problem with it is not that it twists the divine but that it wholly misrepresents the world. The essential nature of the world is missed for the hierarchical concepts of power and station. How many times is the argument played out, who is greater in the kingdom. The sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath.