christians and fundamentalism

No. If what you represent is the found, I'd rather stay lost. You are as a Wil-O-the Wisp, the only place you'll lead me is into the mire....

 

I don't believe the God of the Bible represents these things. For all the good that I can see in some Christians, and in Jesus' teachings, I don't see the God of the Bible as good. This is not to say that the concept of God isn't perfection itself, should God exist, and if it did, then it would have to embody perfection, but the way he is portrayed in the Bible, is not, by my understanding, perfection. He's a jealous God, a vengeful God, a violent God and an unjust God. Just one example, that no Christian has ever been able to explain to me. Why the first born children of Egypt? Why kill them? Why kill the innocent? Rammases' tyranny was not their doing, they played no part in the oppression of the Israelite slaves. This seems to me an unjust and brutal act of vengeance. Every christian I have ever asked about that, has simply turned to me and said, well God did it, and it was written in the Bible, so it must be just, and it must be good. I do not accept this, and I ask you to justify it, with your own moral conscience....

 

Actually, I think that's a much better outlook than many I've heard. At least, in the sense that I take it to mean "faith in christ" indicates a person who's attempting to lead a life of virtue. The only problem I have is when christians attempt to create narrow definitions of what they believe virtue to be.

Believe it or not, Peppy, I don't think you're a bad person. I simply feel that when you define homsexuality as a sin, you're making a human judgement, which is essentially prejudiced. Nobody can know god's will - you can only make a best guess. If you have so much faith in god, then best leave the judging to him, eh? All we can do as individuals is listen to our inner voice telling us what we feel is right and wrong. If someone else feels that their inner voice is telling them it's OK to be gay, who are you to judge?

I've got much more to say about Jaz's post, but I'll save that for tomorrow when I'm not quite so pissed

 

uh oh

 

ok i'm ready for ya....

yeah, and heaven is for sinners anyway. :d Jesus din't come to save good people!

 

Without quoting your whole post here.

As I said before I was involved in the church but turned away from it because of the politics. I'm not a church goer and don't use the label 'Christian' as I feel it is too limiting for me, but I do still believe in a 'something' that I choose to call God. However during my stint in the church I did learn a lot about the Christian message. This is my basic understanding.

Sometimes it seems like there are 2 Gods, the vengeful and merciless God of the Old Testament (or Torah) and the loving and forgiving God of the New Testament

The story in the bible seems to be a progressive one, it gives an insight into the way people lived thousands of years ago and an insight into the way people viewed God and the way they explained things. The story in the old testament is mainly that of the exodus of the jews out of Egypt and how they were kept together and protected by their Lord Jehovah. If you believe that there is a heaven and a hell then death is something that is not all that bad, it is just part of the process.

When the 'sin' was too bad for God to deal with he would just wipe it out. Why should he worry? After all it was his creation so he had every right to destroy it. Hence we have the great flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I can't explain the inexplicable or make excuses for what seems evil but I understand that the God of the jews was protecting his people and rewarding those who were 'without sin'.

Yes I agree, there were some bloody acts of vengeance in the OT Bible story, there are also loads of contradictions (The biggest one being that God seems to admit to making mistakes) ... but I think it all changed with the New Testament.

The general story is that God realised that he was fighting a losing battle against evil and decided to give things another shot. Instead of the usual punishment and retribution for evil doers he would offer them another chance. He came down to earth in the form of his son to try to persuade people to repent for their crimes, to change their ways and seek a more spiritual and forgiving way of life. In return for this he would guarantee them a place in heaven no matter what they had done wrong in the past.

This time round he stopped being the God of the Jews and opened his way to everyone.

However as soon as the message started to be carried worldwide it started to get corrupted by human interpretation.

The main story of the New Testament offers a great way to live, whether you believe Jesus is the messiah or just a dude with some great ideas. It also explains the evil in the world as part of an overall struggle that has been going on forever.

So back to the original post about fundamentalists ...

Well like I said before its comparable to politics, the right wingers will look at what they choose to look at, they will focus on the small picture and use it to make judgements on people. The left wingers and more liberal people will look at the whole story and bigger picture and recognise the good in people rather than judging.

 

The problem with this philosophy is that there's no such thing as 'straight from the bible'. The bible is subject to human interpretation. It's not a clear document explaining how we should live our lives.

Christianinty may be alternative, but the prejudices that it promotes are unfortunately mainstream.

Quite aside from which I think you missed the point entirely. It's not important whether something is "alternative" or not. I mean, you could regard being a rapist as an alternative minority lifestyle! 'Alternative' doesn't mean shit in and of itself. By 'counter-culture and alternative ways of thinking', we're generally referring to ideas which can broadly be defined as progressive and liberating, whereas christianity is seen by many people as the exact opposite.

Who are you to say whether someone else has misinterpreted it or not? Surely they'd say the same of you? And right there is the problem - the way you interpret the bible is entirely subjective and personal. And of course, many christians, atheists and agnostics alike would tell you that the bible can not be taken as a single entity - it's a collection of texts, written in different times and cultures, and by different people. You can therefore choose to believe that the bible is the divine and inspired word of god - but that's a choice. It also has many problems, such as the way the bibel contradicts itself. Your other alternative is to accpet that the bible contaions both good and bad, and it's for the indivivual to try and understand which is which. But again, it all comes down to subjectivity and personal choice.

 

The thing to remember is that all religons are made up. Religon evolved as human society progressed. Early religon's view of God or Gods were radically different from that of today. In early times, the Gods were only to be apeased by sacrificies and worship, there was no moral aspect to early religon. As civilisation progressed ideas about God changed, God in the minds of many became more civilised and moral. A strict moral code developed as religous leaders now saw God not as just an all powerful and vengeful being, but also as a loving and caring one.
If you look at world history you will see this. Also Christianity ,which is descended from Judaism which itself stole many ideas from other religons, inherited a lot from older religons. Christianity is often said to have many of its traditions rooted in Paganism.

I don't think that anyone in this day and age but a total fanatic cannot see that religon is anything else but a man made thing.

 

Now I'm really pissed off! I just wrote a bloody essay for you guys and my computer crashed and deleted it all, now I can't get it back!

anyway I'll try and summarise it as I can't be bothered to write the whole lot out again:

one thing that's amusing me about this forum at the moment is that there seem to be quite a few 'hippy fundamentalists' around and the similarity between them and the christian fundamentalists is astounding, neither are willing to change their point of view and neither listen to the other without trying to fit it into their own agenda. This is just human nature though and I'm not going to start telling people they're right or wrong (mainly because I don't know but I'll come to that a bit later).

I'm in a pretty odd place with the whole christian argument at the moment, I'm an avid non-believer (some might say an active non-believer I suppose) but I'm going out with a christian who's currently helping out in a 'house of hospitality' with a couple of nuns (well, one's a nun, the other is from the convent so I assume she's a nun, I've no idea how these things work though) This is leading to my view on chriatianity bouncing around like a yoyo at the moment so if I contradict myself at all then bear with me.

The problem for me is that I really agree with the work they're going to do (housing destitute refugees) but I can't agree with the reasons they have for doing it. It seems to me that while -as Paul mentioned earlier- everyone needs to develop at their own spiritual pace everyone should also realise that spirituality is only a part of life and not the whole deal, when it any part of someones life is emphasised it tends to lead to a narrow world view which can lead to believing the silliest of things (for example homosexuality bad, men cutting their hair good although they are both considered bad in the bible).

I guess the point I'm trying to make really is how can we possibly be expected to know? There are some pretty awful people out there who claim to be members of whatever group be it Christians, hippies or the monster raving loony party but there are also some pretty good people who are members of the same organisations (I keep getting interrupted by phone calls as I'm trying to write this as I'm at work and it's really starting to piss me off now). Shit, I guess I've just had enough of watching fighting on the news to have to go into the office and have a fight with the boss or read hipforums and see fighting on here, it's all just a few beliefs, if you don't want to be part of them then don't, if someone decides that because of their religion you're going to hell then take it with a pinch of salt, it's probably the same fear spreading person who'll be right next to you down there anyway (not that I actually believe in heaven or hell or that I'm making a threat, it's just a use of phrase). It just annoys me that people can believe in anything so strongly that they feel they are right and everyone else is wrong, what annoys me even more is that it tends to be people who are ill educated on their subject matter who tend to defend it the most, there are so few people out there who actually bother to find out about what they say before the words come out of their mouth it's amazing. The thing that annoys me most of all is that I've been guilty of that many times before now and probably will be many times again.

anyway, I'm just having a shitty morning and after reading through the second version of this I've realised it has nothing whatsoever to do with the first, sorry about that.

 

But if you believe in any form of the divine, then that makes spirituality the whole reason you're here, so it can't be said to be "only a part of life".

We can't. Which is why it's silly to tell people that they're sinners.

Very true. It's quite possible to interpret the christian faith in a positive way. And of course, you can still be a blind fool and a good person.

If only it were that simple. I don't think "not being a part of it" it helped the 200,000 witche executed during the middle ages. Nor does it help all the people whose lifestyles are subject to persecution as a direct or indirect result of prejudice encouraged by the church. If christians could genuinely keep their faith to themselves, then it wouldn't be a problem. In practice, most fundamentalists can't. They usually see it as important to 'save' non-believers. If they don;t help us, we'll burn in hellfire. They see it as altruistic to oppose our sin.

You forget that very large parts of the church have an active political agenda. They're not going to "live and let live". They want to see homophobic laws instituted. They want to see the state intervene to encourage marriage. They want abortion outlawed. I'll leave them alone when they leave me alone.

 

That reminds me that hippies in California founded the christian cult the Children of God back in the late sixties. By the late seventies it had degenerated from a orthordox christian church into the most amoral cult around. Other hippies at the same time in New York's Greenwich Village got into the Hare Krishna cult. Many other hippies in the late sixities traveled to India in search of God. It just shows how the original hippie movement was not as right on as people think.

 

firstly I said spitituality, thaty doesn't mean the whole reason we're here to most people who have beliefs at all, secondly the people who do believe it's the whole reason we're here still have to do things like interact with other people, go to work, eat etc. so there are other parts of their life which all need to be balanced propperly.

people ARE silly, taking away religion won't change that at all and it won't change people morals, just make them look for a different justification.

lol, very true!

well 200,000 witches isn't something we're dealing with now is it? All organisations that have lasted that long have done some pretty terrible things I'm sure.

Now you're talking about the church as a cohesive unit aiming to attack certain civil liberties wheras earlier they were a rabble who didn't even know what they believed. The Vatican was anti war which as far as I'm concerned is good, it's also anti gay which I think is terrible. here's the pinch of salt part, they aren't going to change our world but they are expressing their opnion, fine by me (even though I don't like their opinion most of the time). The gay Pride rallys promote homosexuality, the church promotes homophobia, it all goes to show that it's an issue of the day, I'm sure we're as likely to be arguing about it in 2000 years time as we're likely to argue about whether to dunk a whitch now.

Ok, When was the last time the church interfered with your life ro stopped you from being able to live it how you wanted to?(serious question, I'm not taking the piss here) They may want certain things but that's because they haven't got them

 

Believing that spirituality underlies your whole life does not need to preclude an interest in material existence. Even if our origins are divine, we still need to interact with the world. In fact, seeing as we've been put here, that interaction would seem to kinda be the purpose of our existence.

And if you take a gun away from a killer he'll probably still kill people. Doesn't mean you shouldn't take away the gun.

No, fortunately the church isn't actually allowed to kill people anymore, so it has to settle for spreading its prejudice in more subtle ways.

Don't talk shite. Where did I say that?

Oh come on, that's idiotic! What do you think changes the world if not opinions?!? Actions don't spring out of some form of vacuum - actions are inspired by opinions. Expressing prejudiced opinions directly influences the opinions of others, which in turn influences the actions they take. For a start, have you any idea how much the catholic church has contributed to the world aids epidemic by refusing to sanction the use of contraceptives?

If my girlfriend ever needs an abortion, the time limit has already been reduced as a result of christian lobbying, led a few years ago by the born-again MP David Alton.

Clause 28 was introduced to stop the 'promotion' of homsexuality in schools, thus preventing teachers from even helping kids to understand their own sexuality, and increasing the culture of homophobia. This was introduced after lobbying by christian MPs.

Because marriage is still the only institution recognised by the state, my partner does not have automatic rights as my next of kin. The institutionalised church is actively opposing the recognition of other unions alongside marriage.

More importantly, all our lives are affected by the kind of prejudices advocated by certain varieties of christian. Fortunately, the moral war is being won, and christianity is on the decline. That's no reason for burying your head in the sand and pretending that it's no longer a threat though.

 

ok, I quess my main point here isn't that I'm pro anything, it's more that I'm anti segregation, it's happening all around us and it's the reason for so much heartache and misery, the church seperates out homosexualy, the hippies seperate out the christians, the white seperate out the blacks, it's just a never ending spiral of grief and all because we have this pack instinct which gives us a desire to be part of 'us' which means that there then has to be a 'them'. I may hate it but then I'm just as bad, there are things I don't like in people as well (I'm a very long way from perfect). To be honest I'm not too sure how far human beings have evolved, infact I'm not sure we are 'human beings' as we act like a completely different species to eachother most of the time.

 

I agree entirely. This is why I'm so opposed to fundamentalist christianity - it attempts to create division between the 'saved' and the 'unsaved'. It also creates division between those living 'sinful' lifestyles and those not.

And to go back to your previous point, this is what bugs me. You'd think the church should be encouraging love rather than branding it a sin. I don't give a shit about what people get upto in the privacy of their bedrooms. I'm just happy when people, of whatever gender or inclination, find love.

Not strictly true, though. I have nothing against any christian who doesn't promote prejudice or regressive views. I've met many, many christians over the years whith whom I have absolutely no problem, and whose faith I utterly respect. The trouble arises with the 'back to the bible' bunch. Or the fundies, as we used to call them.

I agree. Which is why I'm not anti-christian, but rather anti-prejudice. There just happens to be a lot of it in the church.

 

i am a christian as you all know ive been a christian for two years...before that i was actively against christianity. i told my christians friends daily that they were brain washed...i was seriously worried about the dpeth of some of their involvement with the chruch...i thought thwey were signing their lives away to a lie that restricts and condemns.
then i met jesus christ...i dont expect people to take my words seriously now as many of you have made it abundantly clear how much you disagree with christianity. but i know i met the lord jesus christ and from that moment on, i couldnt not believe his message. i dont tell people i follow a religion becuase of the connations of that word...i have a faith. i have a faith that god exists and that he loves me and that he created. i have a faith that he created me for a a relationship with him, but i messed that up through my sinful life and so jesus had to die to reconcile me to god. it sounds fairy tale, it sounds, ridiculous, it sounds unbeliavble...THIS MESSAGE IS NOT SOMETHING I EVER WOULD HAVE CHOSEN TO BELIEVE! i was not vulnerable i was not searching for a faith..i wasd opposed to god and christinaity and everything it stood for...but god changed my whole life.
none of my family are christians, my mum thinks ive lost my mind but whether you have proof for something or not, if you have expereinced it first hand how can you believ otherwise? the fact that what i have expereinced, seen and heard on a personal relationship with god is also spelt out exactly thwe same in hundreds of relationships between god and man in the bible, makes it solid truth to me that what i have expereinced is real. i believe Jesus to be the only way..i dont say this becuase i think im better or above anyone else..i dont say this becuase im saved and your not and im looking down on you, im saying this becuase i want to offend, oppress, incite anger..i am saying this becuase my whole life has been transformed and there is no othere way i can explain but to say god is real!! he is alive, he does love us all and he does save today.
i believe in the bible...i bible it to be the very breath of god..yes, it was written by mans hands, but i believe god to be in control, god to be inspiring, god breathed text. i totally belive this., maybe you see this as foolish, maybe you see me as brain washed, but i believe the bible to be alive today. it speaks into everey situation and i am told by god to follow the bible so i do, because i love him. i love him becuase he saved me and becuase every day he amazes me.
idont expect any of you to change your minds, i dont expect you to agree or empathise with me..i know i will never argue someone into heaven...so i guess this debating could go on forever...with you guys saying im wrong for saying im right...i understand that. i9 guess one thing i would say is, i may come across harsh in theses forums but only becuase i see what i believe to be solid truth and when a discussion is edging around this subject i will state what i believe the truth to be...if any of you know me outside of this interent world you will know that i dont preach to people, i dont argue im right your wrong, i dont force my faith down peoples throat...but qwhen it comes to standing up for my faith i will.
i believ wholeheartedly that i am here to love god with all my heart, soul and mind and to love others and that what im going tpo do.i dont want to alienate myself but angering people ...i want to love people and give my life for others..but i aware that this message, the gospel messgae is offensive. i am aware that it affects peoples lives, i am aware that it butts in, interrupts, offends, accuses and points the finger...but that is exactly what it did to me and thta is exactly how god came and saved me.

love luchi x

 

I never said a word about believing that spirituality underlies your whole life or whether or not there was a purpose to our existence, to be honest I don't think there is one but then that's just my opinion.

You're quite right, he'll just find another way to do it, and as we're talking about peoples moral opinions rather than murderers it make no difference what their justification is but they will find one and no one is going to get locked up for having an opinion.

You keep referring to 'The Church'



As for the rest of your post I have to say that I'm not arguing for or against the church here, I'm arguing against these prejudices that seperate people out, while you're talking about christians as having lobbied an MP for whatever I'm sure left wingers have succesfully lobbied things the church hates as well, that's no reason to have anything agianst them, they're doing the same as any protestor would in there shoes.

Anyway, I'm over tired and pretty miserable this morning and I'm sure I've annoyed a few people already so I'm going to leave this post here before I start saying anything more 'idiotic'

 

Now while I respect your interpretation of events, to the cynical amongst us, the sudden switch of beliefs from one extreme to another would make the notion of brainwashing even more likely!

How are we defining vulnerable? From what you've written about your life in the past, it sure sounded like you were pretty vulnerable to me.

And this is the problem with fundamentalism in a nutshell. There are other people who believe they've experienced a direct relationship with an entirely different deity. Why should you be right and they be wrong?

But again, this is your personal belife. Many christians don't see the bible in that way. Why are you right and they wrong?

No offense, mrs bean, but the brainwashed never believe themselves to be brainwashed. That's kinda the whole point of brainwashing.

 

LOL!!! just saw this and had to reply. So, to sum up, you agree that seperating out people is the reason for heatache and misery the world over but we should seperate out the fundamentalist christians because some of it's their fault?

 

However, the church has been part and parcel of shaping people's opinions for generations. Educating people to think for themselves, rather than turning to the bible, can only serve the wider good.

That's what they call shorthand. Would you like me to list every specific branch of the church as a footnote to every comment? don't be ridiculous. I've already made it perfectly clear that I believe there are many christians who practice their faith in a positive fashion, so don't be pedantic.

But the track record of christianity when taken as a whole is one of oppression and prejudice, persecution and violence. I'm not really sure I see your point......