Originally Posted by thumontico Whether its the individual's fault or not is completely besides the point. The point IS that, whether deservedly or not, God willfully condemns his own creation to an existence of eternal suffering, either actively or by apathetic inaction. My reply to this is in a question. You all seem to commonly agree that there is duality here, that there is only right and wrong, good and evil. Let me ask you something, then: When the tiger kills its prey, is it out of hatred, distaste? Do the ferocious roars, showing of teeth and slashing of claws necessarily mean some sort of intention to make its prey suffer? No. The tiger kills to live, to eat and survive. When an insect falls into your pool and drowns itself, is this some sort of cruelty? No, it is life. Things happen, movements occur, the cycle spirals. That is nature. Many individuals seem to come to the conclusion that we are different than the rest of nature. We are unique, chosen, special. This theme, this story is evident throughout our history, in many cultures and many religions - including Christianity. Keep in mind it may just be a story of our very own making. You may argue that yes, we are different in that we have achieved the level of right and wrong, we have achieved the level of self awareness, and more so the ability of judgement between good and bad. But let me question this: Is this duality we have been able to conceive mentally, indeed just a mentality? Just one way of looking at things? Perhaps perception is genetic? Perhaps each species has an imagination of its existence? Really, think about this. Is this impossible? And what if duality was indeed just one way to look at things, a step in our mental evolution? A step up or step down? One cannot be sure.. Perhaps just movements back and forth, leading to a greater level of understanding. Again, I ask each of you, anyone reading this to just try something. Free yourself from everything, all preconceived notions about anything. Let perceptions all be potentially true, and remain in that state for a little while. Whether it just be while you browse through the internet, take a walk, talk with a friend, or just while you gaze out a window. Attempt it. A state of total open, vulnerability. Open up all chances, open your mind.
So God sacrificed God (jesus) to himself, and that somehow pays for my sins??? Christians need to learn to follow their arguments to their end, they might learn something. The way I see it, if God wanted to forgive our sins, all he had to do was forgive. Not sacrifice himself to himself. That's like if someone owes you 100 dollars. Instead of simply forgiving the debt, you hand him another $100, tell him to hand it back, and declare the debt settled. That second $100 bill (representing Jesus) is unnecessary and only confuses the issue. And if there is some kind of cosmic law that says all things must be balanced out, all debts paid...well, you can see here that the debt wasn't really repaid. It's almost a trick, making you believe the debt is settled when you are still 100 dollars in the hole. Maybe money debts can be forgiven, but does this apply to good and evil, virtue and sin. It seems karmic balance must be achieved, and no one can change that.
God does NOT willfully condemn anyone. Humans are sinners, we condemn ourselves. God does love us and He wants us to be closer to Him, but the fact remains that God is too beautiful and too glorious. He condemns us because He has no choice. If God just turned His back on Eve's first sin, then He would be no better than us, His creation. But God IS better than us and humans do not deserve His love.
He's god, right? All-powerful? Can't an omnipotent being do whatever it wants? Isn't that what omnipotent is? If god decides to forgive eve, and then says that's what is right, then that's what is right.
God wants us all to be happy and safe. Satan causes bad things to happen and then places doubts in some people's minds about God. God does love us, and He has given us free will. Up until the time of our death, we have many, many chances to accept Jesus -- the way to Heaven. After we die, it's too late. God loves us and wants us to be with him for eternity, but if we don't love him back, then why would we want to be with him, and why would he want us to be with him? And let us not forget He also loves us so much, He gave us the Holy Spirit to help us live our earthly lives as best as possible until we get to Heaven.
Not exactly to Himself, more like to satisy justice. And yes, the sacrifice stands to purify the offense against God. I think that the analogy is a little flawed. Imagine you are at a guests house. While you are there, you break a lamp. Now, in order for justice to be served, you have to pay for the lamp. Now, just to make our analogy more suited, let's say the lamp was priceless. So, you cannot effectively pay for the lamp. However, the lamp owner comes forward and says, "If you want, I will forgive the debt completely." You can admit your wrongdoing and complete helplessness and accept his offer, or you can decide to try and work off a priceless debt. However, either way, someone still has to pay for the lamp. Since your host forgave the debt, your host pays. God offers forgiveness if you want it (like your host did), and He already PAID for it, but you have the choice. You can still try and work it off or you can simply admit that you are incapable of making reparations for your wrongoding. The choice is yours, but justice will be served.
God can do anything that is possible. He cannot alter His own nature, He cannot cease to exist, He cannot act outside of His nature, He cannot break the Law of Non-contradiction or the Law of the Excluded Middle. In short, anything that is possible and/or conceivable, God can do. Forgiving Eve without some sort of sacrifice would be unjust. God doesn't arbitrarily decide what is right and wrong. What is right and wrong correspond directly to His character and His nature. A right and good action is what parallels His character. A wrong action is any action that doesn't.
Yes to himself. Jesus is god, god is god, and there is only one god. So, god sacrificed god to god. Jesus is a superfluous in the whole game, and i feel it confuses things. (then you add Paul in there and the water gets even muddier). I don't see why god needs to sacrifice himself to forgive anyone. It's such a convoluted idea. If the lamp is priceless, the owner himself can't pay for it either. Of course, you'll say god can do anything he wants. Nice loophole. I don't accept that anyone can clear my karma but me. One can put faith in god, that god will guide them, but the individual must walk the path himself.
Jesus is the vessel of the sacrifice. He is, therefore, not superfluous. Even if God sacrificed God to God (which is confusing and not truly representative of the trinity), there is nothing wrong with God sacrificing God to God. However, you say that you don't see why a sacrifice is required? Try this: [size=+1][size=-1][size=+0]God is in the position of highest authority, of the highest good, and is therefore a being of the highest personal honor. [/size][/size][/size] [size=+1][size=-1][size=+0] All sin and evil are therefore an insult to the honor of God, a disregard of His rule and authority and an honor offense. [/size][/size][/size] [size=+1][size=-1][size=+0] Any who commit sin/evil, therefore, are degrading God's honor and status. Because this honor rightly belongs to God, it must be restored. [/size][/size][/size] [size=+1][size=-1][size=+0]God's proper response is to require the shaming and punishment of those who degrade His honor.[/size][/size][/size] Christ then, underwent a "status degradation ritual" in order that His personal Honor might be shamed to the point where God's Honor was restored in our place. The idea is not nearly as convoluted as you think. There are three things that are key: 1) understanding the nature of the trinity (1 what - God, 3 whos - Father, Son, Holy Spirit), 2) understanding honor-shame societies, and 3) understanding conceptions of justice. No analogy is perfect, and I think you are taking the analogy too far. But okay, let's say the lamp was worth one billion dollars. You don't have a billion dollars, but the owner does. You are in the same state, but now there is an amount attached. The issue is the same, you can't pay, the owner can. Huh? You picked at a specific statement in my analogy without, it seems, considering the analogy as a whole. Why not?
Ok...but the bible contradicts itself all the time. Like when god says "Thou shalt not kill," after he says that gays and sorceresses should be put to death. Did he change there? Or were those exceptions to the no-killing rule? Why does forgiving Eve require a sacrifice? He didn't even have to. He could have turned her back in to a rib, stuck her back in adam, made him back into dust, and made them both again, no?
It's called a joke. The only thing to fear is God's terrible sense of humor. Arlia, your eyes are soooo hot.
I can tell. Wow. Love it. Saw this girl at church today who looked like one I had a fantasy about yesterday. She was so beautiful and so right to be there when she is. Just like you.
No, I don't see why a sacrifice is necessary. If someone wrongs me, they can be forgiven and their karma cleared if they make an effort to ask my forgiveness (I can forgive regardless, but their karma would remain unless they atone). I don't have to sacrifice a lamb to finish the act of forgiving...why does god? Because it is my wrong, my problem. If I put out evil, the natural way of the universe is that evil will come back to me (what goes around comes around, you get what you give). No one can just up and change things. I've caused something and the effects necessarily can't be stopped. It's like if I threw a rock at a window and somehow, someone changes the rules and the rock breaks instead of the window. It's nonsensical. Plus, before Jesus came to clear our sins...did everyone go to hell? Seems a ridiculous notion (and probably I'm wrong anyways). But if people before Jesus can go to heaven by asking forgiveness (taking care of their own karma), why was Jesus even necessary? Either way one has to beg forgiveness. Christianity just has you go through Jesus rather than straight to God (of course, their the same guy...confusing religion...I chose a simpler route).
Like I said, you have to understand the Christian concept of God. Not only is He loving and merciful, He is also completely just. He cannot tolerate injustice. Now, if you choose to forgive someone, that is your perogative. However, you can allow injustice. If you choose to forgive someone of a wrong and recieve no compensation for the wrong done, then you have been merciful, but you have allowed injustice. They get away with it. God's just nature, however, prevents Him from letting people just get away with it. Justice demands that someone must provide restitution. Here is where we get to the Trinity. Christ, a distinct person, came as a man to provide restitution on behalf of mankind. Christ, as a human, went through the crucifixion as an atoning work. His perfect honor as a human (for it was a human that dishonored the Godhead) met the requirements of justice and allowed for all to take on Christ's righteousness. So you see, you can allow people to behave unjustly towards you, however, God, the source of all justice, cannot. Someone has to pay for the offense. Christ, in His mercy, made the payment for you, but you must admit that you need it in order to recieve the forgiveness that God wants to give. I think the problem you are having is that you are falling back to the idea of karma. If the Christian God exists, then there is no such thing as karma. To understand why the sacrifice is necessary, you must understand that *justice* is what calls for sacrifice, not karma. You might be right that no one else can clear your karma, however, the issue is not your karma. Your karma will not take you to hell, nor will it take you to heaven. It is the choosing or rejecting of Christ that determines eternal destination. That is an issue of justice. And punishment most definitely can be inflicted upon the innocent. Also, as an aside, this is another way in which Jesus claimed to be God. He forgave all sin. In order to forgive, you have to be the one offended. If you slug the mailman, I cannot forgive you for that, only the mailman can. To forgive all sins, you have to be the one offended in all sins. The only person offended in all sins, is God. So, when you understand it that way, the Pharisees throwing a fit because Jesus forgave sins makes sense. He was claiming to be God! Because people before Jesus who went to paradise, believed that the sacrifice was coming. The reasons Christians do not sacrifice any more is because all Old Testament sacrifice was a shadow of the final sacrifice to come. They were saved by faith that the Messiah *would* come. They were saved not simply by asking for forgiveness, but by faith in the coming Messiah - this is the same way that people are saved now except that we ask for forgiveness and have faith that the Messiah *has* come. In both cases, the sacrifice was absolutely necessary. Christ is God, but Christ is NOT the Father, nor is He the Holy Spirit. The three are one God in essence, in substance. They, however, are distinct persons that are in perfect unity. One substance, three persons. One "what", three "who"s. The closest analogy that I can find is the idea of a three person partnership in the US. Each person is a person, but they are all three the partnership. The partnership is an entity made up of three persons, but each person of the partnership has complete power over the partnership. To liken it more to the actual trinity, imagine that all three persons were in complete unity in essence, nature, and character. Even this analogy breaks down quickly, but you can see how, at least, they can be three persons and still be one God.
It seems that Jesus was a symbol for us to understand a meaning beyond our previous level of comprehension. Something we'd 'click' better about than a sudden absolving of sins and a whisper from God telling us that, "By the way, I left the door unlocked for when you get back." But I suppose the Christian God supposed we wouldn't get it that way. So he sent someone (A form of himself) to say, "Okay. I'm here to help you guys and show you that I unlocked the door." I honestly don't believe this is anything more than a re-occuring theme from previous pagan religions, originating in Egypt and other relatively close areas. (Check out the Egyptian's Osiris story and the Sumerian's creation story. Trust me, it's worth a look if you have an open mind.) Parts of Judaism seem to originate and/or share common themes with these ancient religious beliefs, and Christianity seems to have adapted and grown from them. Perhaps Christianity picked up and grew from them as it expanded. Makes me wonder about the authenticity of Jesus' message. Is it original? Some say yes, some say no. I have to say, though, that even first generation accountants and disciples of many religions often confuse the message the originator gave forth. From inner light to outer light. From reaching in to reaching out and putting in yourself. Think about it.
