Do any of you actually live in Amsterdam?

As i've mentioned on numerous occasions, I believe that the solution is in the international reputation of the netherlands and how heavily the dutch rely upon it.

 

My thoughts exactly. In fact, I think the more the media emphasizes how badly integrated everyone is, the worse it gets. Selffulfilling prophecy and everything. And it makes you think.. why would you even want to force different people to become friends? If it doesn't happen natural, you're not gonna succeed by forcing it either. As long as the different groups aren't afraid of eachother and don't discriminate, maybe it should be ok. And again, discrimination is a result of fear, and the current fear of muslims and all is very much due to the whole 9/11 thing and Balkenende imho.

Exaclty. Plus, if there are foreigners interested in Dutch culture, they are better of in the Dutch forum instead of the Amsterdam forum. I really don't see why anyone who comes to Amsterdam for a few days to have a good time would want to know all about the political/social struggles here. When I go to Paris for a week I'm there for a good time, not to change the world or to be aware of all the troubles. I focus on my own country for that, my direct neighbourhood. It's very easy to point fingers from a distance.

 

As far as I know the 'international reputation' of the Dutch is 'openminded down to earth people'. The 'international reputation' of Amsterdam is 'pot, RLD and musea'. I don't think the Dutch really care about what other people or countries think of them. Thereby.. what does the reputation (external) have to do with the internal struggles?

But this is all completely besides the point. My only question was: what is it of use for an average tourist that visits this Amsterdam forum to know about any of this? Is it supposed to be a 'warning'? Are you trying to 'educate' them? I still don't see what the use of a tourist knowing about this is.

 

i believe that my motivation and intention have been stated clearly in my previos posts (if you' care to read them with a degree of objectivity). nonetheless, i shall explain myself yet again.

you are right about the current repuation of the netherlands (the tolerent utopia, a progressive place, a place to look up to). i believe that this reputation is very important to dutch people. they feel that it gives them some international significance, something to continue to feel proud about.
you'll probably disagree with me on this, but i believe that reputation is also greatly valued by yourself. why else would you spend so much time on a message board populated largely by tourists. you seem to have painted yourself as an ambassador of amsterdam as such. you enjoy the instant credibilty that you gain from those overseas who believe in the image the netherlands. all the while, you and other dutch people know that the netherlands is no longer the place that these people believe it to be, yet you continue to propogate the myth instead of addressing the reality.

i believe that when the international myth of dutch tolerance and progression is shattered and the truth is laid out for all to see, that the dutch people will finally discard their apathy and do something about it instead of endlessly blaming the immigants for every problem faced by dutch society. in the same way that many americans are often embarassed to admit their nationality whilst overseas (i know many who pretend to be canadian). when the dutch feel a little of that shame, i believe it will lead them to look for real answers instead of scapegoats. it might also make them realise and what they are losing and how special it really is (was).

so my goal is to change the now antiquated reputation of the netherlands and bring it in line with reality. i say all this because i wholeheartedly believe in fundamental ability of the dutch people to restore the netherlands to a positive example for the rest of this fucked up world.

 

I don't even know how to reply to this.. you really have no clue.. you think you understand.. but you really really really don't..

 

what don't i understand exactly? or is it perhaps that im not dutch (enough) and therefor incapable in understanding?

often you will find that solutions come from the outside. those involved are frequently too invested in the situation to address the issues with the necessary objectivity.

please, tell me what i don't understand?

 

btw, to all the dutch members who profess to be sick and tired of my arguments, here is a little lesson about message forums:

responding to a thread bumps it to the top of the page and encourages more responses and participation. If you truly are sick of hearing from me on this, then why keep responding?

stop posting and this thread will sink faster than the flevoland.

 

on this i agree with you.

did you notice the part of the article that mentions how the more educated immigrants are more inclined towards dutch society? a large part of the problem is that many dutch people actually believe this crap. it's yet another attempt by the dutch media to say 'look at how backwards these people are' and 'anyone worthwhile recognises how great all things dutch are and how backwards everything else is'.

 

Most dutch really don't care about how ppl see holland.. when you see on tv a program where they ask ppl from other countrys about holland they a. don't even know where to find it on a map and b. talk about drugs, tulips and the red light district. I think most foreign ppl don't think about dutch politics.. And most dutch really don't care what ppl think, I know I don't..
No country is perfect, but we still have to live in this one, so it's understandable we'll defend it.. cause what's the point living in a country if it's all bad?? You'll have to find the good things in a situation and make the most of it. But that doesn't mean we can't see and acknowledge the bad things that happen here..

these people come here to smoke weed and visit the house of anne frank.. they're not interested in these things.. read velvets last post, I can't say it better then she did.. And because she lives in amsterdam and because she knows the city, ofcourse she can give advice.. ambassador of amsterdam.. please.. she's just a nice person for giving people anwsers to questions they have..

well thank god we have you..

 

i think you're wrong about dutch people not caring about how other countries view the netherlands. from my experience living in amsterdam, dutch people claim not to care (whilst constantly passing judgement on the rest of the world, despite not even having travelled extensively), but they actually care a great deal. this thread is evidence enough of that.

you are right about foreigners not knowing about dutch politics. the identify holland with drugs and sex (liberalism). the liberal policy in regards to these two areas is not a true reflection of how most dutch people think.

of course no country is perfect, and to an extent it's understandable that people will defend where they are from. however seeing the bad things and being apathetic about them is a real problem. anyone who has lived in holland for an extended period of time will comment on how one very common dutch trait is avoiding responsibilty. whenever you have problem in holland (be it with kpn, agis or any dutch run company), they will always handball the problem and blame someone else for the screwup. dutch people often don't notice this culture of passing the blame, because they have been brought up in it and haven't experienced any different. the media and the populist government is another example: it's always someone elses fault, mostly immigrants. having a dutch person say sorry and admit that they were wrong or that they made a mistake is amazingly rare. sure, you'll get people like that everywhere, but in holland it seems as if that behaviour is applauded.

just look at the way you have to fight to get service in a shop or to get off the train. common decency and being civil to a fellow human being is almost frowned upon here. my dutch friends have told me that the dutch behave this way because they don't like being 'fake. they frown on phoney niceness in shops etc. i've often been told that if you want the dutch to respect you, you must complain and be as obnoxious as possible and there is a lot of truth to that. i don't like trite niceness either, but i'll take it over downright nastiness and complete self absorbtion.

i would also question how well velvet really does know amsterdam after having only lived there for a few months. growing up in the netherlands doesn't automatically mean that you have an intimate knowledge of amsterdam. one thing i have learnt about the netherlands is that very specific attention has been concentrated on making the cities as individual as possible, each with it's own nucleaus. consequently, dutch people are often very provincially minded. i applaud velvet for moving to amsterdam, i know that a move like that can be a really big deal for a dutch family.

 

I think I've identified the problem why we (well, I at least) don't like the way you talk about 'us' and why we jump to response.. Because a lot of what you say is true, but then you go say something stupid like this:

It's degrading.. you talk like you know it all, and this sentence is an example of the fact that you don't..
you know nothing about velvet, so don't try to claim you do..

 

you're right, i don't know anything about velvet (nor was i claiming to), i was just pointing out how, from my personal experience (with dutch family and friends), many dutch families regard a move from say, den haag to amsterdam, as a really major thing (far some significant than the 40 minute commute might suggest). this may not be the case with velvet(i dont' even know where she is, her family might be supportive of her move), but i know several dutch people who caused major rifts within their families by moving to amsterdam.

that said, your point is well taken about about how my approach comes across as degrading. i'll try to keep that in mind in the future. thanks for taking the time to explain.

 

that's cool.. let's just try to discuss this issue without making things personal ok?? but I guess that's hard when you're talking about dutch people in general.. cause I'm dutch, it's difficult not to take it personal..

 

this just points out how much you love to generalize 'us'. My move to Amsterdam was the 6th time I moved.. that includes 3 different provinces and even 1 other country. Moving from one place to another is hardly a big deal amongst the people I know. Consolidated has lived in Amsterdam as well, now lives in a totally different city. It's a tiny country and the infrastructure is pretty good (although public transport isn't cheap) so when a family member or a friend moves it's not the end of the world. Dare I even say that consolidated and I have become closer since we're living apart?

Really, you have to stop pretending you have allll the insight information on The Netherlands. You don't. Simple as that. And about the bumping.. I only responded because you managed to dig up yet another article about the social/political situation here. Oh.. did you notice that no tourist whatsoever is responding to this thread? Maybe that's because they are not interested in the internal affaires of their holiday country.. ever thought of that?

 

The last time I went I demanded to change hotel rooms as the one I was allocated smelt of male bodily fluids !

 

sorry to burst your bubble, but i've received several private messages from tourists and people thinking about moving to amsterdam, thanking me for the info and the honesty.

it's funny how im accused of coming across as a know it all, when almost every comment you make is full of righteous indignation and arrogance.

 

how many aborigines were in your class at high school?

 

come on now mafuman, i know you're smarter than that.

 

well.. since I actually live in Amsterdam at the moment (and in one of the most black neighbourhoods, may I add), plus been visiting Amsterdam almost every weekend since I was 17 (due to having friends here) I think I just have a very down to earth opinion about the city. Also the fact that I was born in the Netherlands ànd am pretty interested in the politics (and political philosofies), social structures, multi cultural affairs ànd have a boyfriend from a different country.. I think that I have a lot of very valid inside information. If you think that me stating my opinion because of that is an act of arrogance I'm sorry. I don't feel like sugarcoating my words. I'm honest and that sometimes makes me sound crude and rough.

Like I said before, I'm saddened by your bad personal experiences and I admire that you seem to care about the situation in my country. I can only hope that you put that same critical view and motivation to change things for the better to some use in your own country. If you want to balance things out, that's good. Balance is always good and Amsterdam isn't just about pot and hookers. However, it is also a wonderfull, liberal place with many options. I know it's darkside all too well, but every (big) city has a dark side.

Amsterdam made me laugh and made me cry. She brings out a lot of emotions, but I can't help but love the city, adore it and care for it and all the people who live in it.

 

It's not your offering information that I was commenting on. It was more the way that your posts seemed to suggest that because your view and experience is different from mine and countless others whom i came to know in the netherlands, that mine was incorrect.

Of course you can offer a unique perspective on the city and country as a whole (being a native), but I would also argue that my own opinion in equally valid. Given that most people visting this board seem to be native english speakers (UK + USA mostly), I would think that many would be interested in the opinion and experiences of a native english speaking person (who holds dutch citizenship) living in amsterdam. In fact I have received numerous emails as a result of this thread from people considering a move to amsterdam based only on their experience as a tourist. Emails asking for advice and general information on things that they might find difficult.

These are issues that a native dutch person would have little idea about because living in the netherlands is all they know. I haven't been advising them not to attempt living there (I gained a lot from my experience there), but I have been dispelling many myths that they had about the place. People who go to live in Amsterdam thinking that it will be the same place that they visited on holiday and that the locals will treat them the same way when they find out that they are actually LIVING in amsterdam, are in for a shock. It's all about being prepared.

Most of these english speaking wannabe expats believe that they will easlily be able to find work and that it doesn't matter if they don't speak dutch because the dutch all speak english. This is true for a visit to the netherlands, but living there and not speaking dutch is hell. You will be treated like shit everywhere, you'll even start speaking in whispers to avoid the nasty glares and mutters of 'buitenlander'. i was even spat at on more then one occasion (and i met several others who had the same experience). This is all behaviour that I would expect in many countries, but not the netherlands, it used to be such an open progressive place and it kills me to see what is happening there.

I'd also like to repeat again that i consider the netherlands to be my country also. In many ways more so than Australia, given that my dutch heritage stretches back over 400 years, while my Australian side is only a few generations old.

Yes, there are things about Australia that need attention (eg, the situation with indigenous australians and the immigration detention). many of these things are getting better, but it will take some time. Like I said earlier, the squeaky wheel gets the oil and at the moment that's the netherlands. Australia is young and we readily adapt and evolve (we're made up of immigrants). We're not in danger of a complete change in our way of life and culture. The Netherlands is really at a major crisis point at the moment. It could easily go either way and I'd hate for this generation of dutch to screw up something that took hundreds of years to create.