Do any of you actually live in Amsterdam?

I read this post when it first came out......skipped the rest and read the last few posts so don't take me too seriously but....

based on the topic of the first post alone, why do you think you wouldn't come off like a "know it all"? seriously, you managed to insult everybody on the board who contributes knowledge to fellow travelers at the best of there ability. And at that time all you have contributed was a "veil of mystery" wrapped around "your knowledge" that you hadn't shared! Now that you have started to contribute as much or more than how much you criticize, people have started to like you spaceman! Glad to see it!

koopa

 

Yours might not be incorrect, but it's isolated. I know only english speaking immigrants (hell, they're black and illegal in the country) and they don't have a problem with their only-english tongue. Granted, they had the curtesy to learn a few Dutch words like 'goedemorgen' and 'dank u wel'.. but I assume it's normal to know the standards words like that if you live in a country, just to show you are interested in the culture.

Personally, I do think it's a little weird that you have such a lot of opinions and keep stressing how you hold Dutch citizinship (do you vote?), your heritage stretched 400 years back etc etc but you don't know how to speak the language? It's a very difficult language, granted, but it's not THAT hard. Hell, a japanese friend of mine manages to speak it pretty understandable and ok after just a few months of lessons. Still, even though you had bad experiences with the language barrière, I know several english speakers who don't have that. In fact, me as a local sometimes have been forced to speak english when I wanted to buy sth downtown in a more touristy shop, because the fellow at the counter doesn't even speak Dutch.

You mention the tourist who want to come and live here, expecting to get an easy job and not having to know anything about the language. I'm almost shocked that people are so terrible unprepared and well, ignorant. How can you think that a vacation-place is the same as a living place? What a dissapointment that must be if their roze coloured bubble is burst. It's like thinking a walk through the jungle most be awesome because 'it's so pretty, all that nature'.

About The Netherlands being the squeaky wheel that needs your devotion because it is supposed to be in a major crisis. If I wasn't busy with other stuff I would love to give you a list of countries that in my opinion need way more attention because of the terrible condition of internal affairs. Major corruption, prosecution etc etc. Ofcourse you don't have a 400 years history with those countries, so you might not be interested in them. Still I find it weird how you so easily dismiss the problems in the area you DO live in and you could contribute way more energy to. Do you do anything in your own area to make things better? At all? Because I would find it a bit hypocrite to keep pointing fingers at the Dutch and almost blame them for not doing enough for their own countries health, if you don't even do anything for the area you are living in yourself. Writing words on the internet is very easily, but what about some hand-on action? I'm not trying to offend you here or blame you for anything, since I don't know what it is you do on a daily basis, but your energy and motivation here makes me wonder what else it is you do to better the world.

This might be an interesting website for you.. you are from Australia right?

http://sydney.indymedia.org/
http://melbourne.indymedia.org/
http://brisbane.indymedia.org/
http://adelaide.indymedia.org/

Looks like there is enough to do close by. These free media sources are the one I use to get inside info on what's really going on.. stuff you wont here in the normal media. Shocking sometimes, eye opener most of the time.

 

Yeah, I think that's sooooo stupid.. When you work in a country which requires you to talk to customers then you have to at least understand the language.. I've had that experience in a not even tourist shop in amsterdam.. It was a little clothing store.. I thought it was really weird she'd only talk english and didn't even understand "hoeveel kost dit?" I mean.. come on.. even if you don't speak the language you have to understand the basic questions people ask.. I don't think I would have been hired in any clothing store in whatever country I was in if I didn't speak the language and had to deal with customers..

 

I don't see why dutch people are so amazed by this? The Netherlands has actively marketed itself as an international country. They boast about the high percentage of english speakers in holland. The Dutch get so enraged when they encounter someone living in 'their country' who doesn't speak the language. Have any of you travelled around America? There are countless places in the USA where people only speak Spanish. Even in Australia, I don't get pissed off when I go shopping at the market and the guy serving me is chinese and speaks little or no english. There are whole communities actively participating to our society who speak almost no english. It might make it harder FOR THEM, but it's none of my business. I believe that people are free to speak any language they like. Who am I to dictate?

there is also the added fact that dutch is a very limited language and when many people in holland are able to speak english, why should someone who is in the country for a short period of time bother to learn the language? even the dutch recognise this, they know that if they want their world to be any bigger than the netherlanands (the length of which can be driven in under 4 hours), then they have to speak another language (mostly english). the reality is that it's more important for the dutch to learn english than it is for others to learn dutch. I know that is statement will piss you all off, but it's the reality.

another thing i noticed when learning the language, is that despite the fact that almost all dutch people compain that you don't speak dutch, when you actually start to learn and speak it in public, they mock you and respond in english anyhow!

if dutch was as widely spoken as say french or spanish, then you would have an argument with some weight behind it, but given it's difficulty and relative uselessness anywhere else, it should come as no surprise that people don't speak it. it should also come as no surprise that when you attempt to FORCE people to speak the language, they will more often than not respond with a resounding 'screw you! i'll speak my own language!'.
the best way to encourage more people to learn dutch is not to force people to do so and critisize them until they do, but to make them admire your culture and country so that they actually WANT to learn it. i think that it would be a great pity if the dutch language was lost, but this current dictatorial trend won't help preserve it. if you look at the birth statistics, the dutch are on the way out, the native dutch population is in serious decline. the only way to preserve it, is to make the non native dutch want to learn about the culture and want to continue it.

 

firstly, you make the assumption that I don't speak any dutch, which is incorrect. it is true that my dutch father did not teach dutch to me while i was growing up, nor did he activley encourage me to learn the language. in regards to voting what does this have to do with anything? i guess it's just yet another qualification you have set in order for me to have a right to comment on the netherlands. as a matter of fact, I have tried to vote in the last 2 dutch elections (from australia), but in typical dutch fashion, the Dutch consulate here didn't get the voter registration forms sent out in time on both occasions.

the argument that there are other countries that need attention, so stop picking on holland is pretty poor.

the fact that other countries (including australia) have problems therefor until I fix them, I have no right to comment on what is going on in the netherlands is simple ludicrous. If I told you that I actively protested outside the detention center every weekend and regularly contributed to various human rights organisations, would that give me the right to then comment on 'your counrty'? how much contribution would you deem necessary from me in order to qualify to comment on the netherlands? would i have to fly to africa first and treat aids patients or heal the leapers in India? Of course all that is tongue in cheek, but surely you can see where im coming from and how your argument is not that soundly constructed.

there's also the fact that if the world is to survive the the likes of george bush, it's going to need someone to set an example. up until quite recently, the netherlands has been that example and I believe it's not impossible to get back there. freedom is about more than smoking pot, it's about freedom from oppression in all it's manifestations. the problems in third world countries can't and won't be solved any time soon. that doesn't mean that we should forget about them, but it does mean that we should focus on making sure that more oppressive regimes aren't allowed to develop. in this regard, i feel that in many ways the netherlands is actually at more of a crisis point than many realise. the crisis over there is not one of providing the basics of life (food, water etc), it's one of consciousness and identity which is just as, if not more critical.

 

i believe that we are witnesses to the second coming of christ our lord.


amen

 

amen

 

wow! one minute i'm not doing enough about the problems in the world, the next I'm hailed as christ. awesome.

 

You rule jason.. I think I love you, will you marry me? you'll have to move to holland though..

 

see, i knew you guys would eventually see my charm. suffice to say that this fish has already been hooked. lol

 

I liked you until mafu made you a prophet!!!!!

LOL

 

sorry, i couldn't resist posting this one. it's dutch business practice at it's best!


NS offers passengers insurance against delays


30 June 2005

AMSTERDAM — Motorist organisation ANWB has accused Dutch rail operator NS of "turning the world on its head" by suggesting passengers pay an annual premium for insurance cover against delays.

"NS must keep delays to a minimum and not make passengers take responsibility for them by paying a premium. The railroad companies have a duty to provide a good product. This is too much," the ANWB said.

NS announced passengers will be able to take out insurance to cover additional costs incurred if a train does not show up at an important moment.

For example, a passenger late for a wedding or a funeral due to a long delay on the rail network could use the
insurance to claim back the cost of getting a taxi.

NS would also reimburse if the insured passenger had to pay extra to catch a later flight due to a delay.

The insurance would only cover delays of more than 30 minutes and only if the delay occurred at a "crucial" moment for the passenger.

NS has presented the insurance as extra "certainty" for its clients. "We don't expect to make a profit on this," a spokesperson for the train company said. The basic premium would be EUR 9.50 a year.

Passenger lobby group Rover has also expressed amazement at the insurance idea, describing it as commuters being asked to pay for something they should have a right to.

Rover said it was only logical NS would offer compensation when it failed to provide a good service. The insurance cover was a worsening of the situation as a passenger used to be able to ask for a receipt to claim back the cost for having to resort to taking a taxi.

[Copyright Expatica News + ANP 2005]

Subject: Dutch news

 

The only store i dont mind people not speaking Dutch is the American bookstore, but the American guy who works there does know at least the standard words, does know how to ask if you have a klantenkaart etc. I dont get what it is with people here not speaking Dutch, because in Belgium all foreigners can after a year or so.

 

this is why this thread will never die.. you keep posting these news messages.. which I don't even read.. I was trying so hard not to respond.. *sigh*

 

True about the ABC! It's always nice if you can at least say a few words..

I really don't get how you can live in a country for more than a few weeks and NOT know a few words of that language! The young african people I know speak pretty fluent Dutch after about 4 years here (and Dutch is usually their third of fourth language they speak). Even the ones who only lived here for less than two years know basic words and sentences. Like I said.. it's not an easy language but it's not thàt hard. Hell, I know a couple of words in Surinam and Krio as well just because that's what my friends speak!

 

Ok, you're not going to enjoy hearing this but it's the truth.

All the native english speaking people that I know living in the netherlands do speak some dutch, they know that basics (this is true of all but one person i know personally). So why don't they use it more often in shopd etc?

I actually wondered the same thing when I first moved to Amsterdam. I couldn't understand why so many people that I knew seemed to have a pretty good understanding of dutch, but when i went out with them in public, they almost always conversed in English.

I began to understand why after living there for a while and picking up a reasonable amount of Dutch myself. I started using the words and phrases that I did know in shops, public transport etc and guess what happened?

The vast majority of Dutch people either just responded in English or critisized my Dutch and started demanding to know how long I had been in the country and why I couldn' speak the language better! There were those who congratulated me for trying and responded slowly and clearly in Dutch so as to help me learn, but these people were few and far between.

After a while, I began to see that the Dutch were really friendly to tourists and that they only seemed to get upset when they thought that you were actually living in THEIR country.

So I too began to speak English and most people just assumed that I was a tourist and consequently I began getting *slighlty* better service and treatment.

Believe it or not, I mention this not to once again critisize the Dutch, but rather to let the Dutch members know why it is that many people give up on speaking Dutch. Perhaps if more locals were open to being patient with those learing the language and genarally more open to the idea that non native Dutch people can contribute to Dutch society, then we'd be more open to embracing the culture and language.

There is so much negative re enforcement by the media and dutch society generally that buitenlanders are the cause of all the problems faced by the netherlands, that newcomers are always very wary of how they are viewed by dutch people in general.

 

I very much agree on this one, the whole problem with foreigners began when politicians made it a problem. Fitting in and getting to know a culture takes time, a lot of time, you cant push it. If only not so many people had said that Maroccans only cause trouble, probably no one wouldve noticed the few Maroccans that do. If not so many people had said that foreign people dont fit it, that they dont learn the language, and it all has to go faster, they wouldve been given the time and it all wouldve worked out. Sometime ago i was watching Barend & van Dorp - probably the worst show ever - and Dinand Woesthof (the singer from Kane) was there. There was this huge discussion going on about foreign people this and foreign people that, and he just stayed out of it. After a while he said the most simple thing about his mother coming from Indonesia, it took her about 20 years to get used to the country, the people, the language, and now she's fine. Just relax, and dont stress it. I was like, wow, finally someone gets it. Sorry, long rant.

 

At the Hilton at Schiphol people speak very poor Dutch, I can live with that too.

 

hear hear!

 

So both times for me it was accidental that Maroccans tried to rob me?