Do any of you actually live in Amsterdam?

This thread is really going nowhere anymore... Jasonspaceman.. maybe you can close it and start some new, clear discussion in another thread or sth?

And cadcruzer.. you kinda made your point by now.

 

yeah made my point. whatever. btw lctricty was an still is wise beyond his years, sorry i didnt see what he did sooner.....and to think i took a stand against a fellow american in your defense, while unknowing to me you cant stand me or my country.

 

Yeah.
Cadcruzer is a real Patriot. A patriot with a gun and who fights and die for his country.

 

I know several Americans who I see as dear friends of mine.. so stop it with the whole 'stand against my country' blah. That I don't like the US foreign policy, the US government, president and some individual people doesn't mean I automatically dislike everyone from the US or dislike the whole North American plate. Stop it with the paranoia already.

At this moment, I think it's hard to find a government somewhere in the world that has a policy that isn't disputable in some way. For me, being a white girl with a good education my current government is supposedly perfect, but the way they are treating everyone who is not white, rich or highly educated is just horrific. You have to think beyond yourself when you look at the consequences of the governmental actions in your country. Sometimes I think of emigration, but the only true reason for that is the climate in the Netherlands.. hehe.. I'd love to live in a more southern European climate No more drizzling rain and clouded skies for the most part of the year!

 

Hi

We are from NZ and are thinkijng of holidaying in Amsterdam in about November could give us any tips about accomadition etc ?? Thanks very much B & J

 

As far as accommodation goes, i would avoid hotels. They are expensive and you really don't get a lot for your money in Amsterdam. That said, if you do want to stay in a hotel, I would not book before you arrive or book only one or two nights only. Then I'd suggust taking a stroll down Damrak (the road that has centraal station at the end) and walking into one of the last minute hotel places. Ask them what is available and for how much. I've done this several times in high and low season and you can expect to get a 200 euro room for around 80 euro. It's also wise to visit the hotel before making your booking. If you're staying in the city, then most are within easy walking distance. During the low season you can get some awesome deals, but even in summer you'll save a significant amount.

What i would recommend first and foremost is to do some research and find an apartment that you can rent for a few days or a week. One good place to start is : http://www.expatriates.com/classifieds/netherlands/
Check the links for short and long term accommodation. If there is a nice apartment offered for long term rent, then it's worth asking the landlord if you could rent it for a week (it's better than having it sit empty and they can still have it on the market). You can score some amazing places for next to nothing by doing this. Alternatively, just look at the short term vacation rentals. You have to use common sense, and i wouldn't recommend giving any money before you arrive.

Also try http://www.elynx.nl/ - click on 'notices'

For the more traditional route, try http://www.citymundo.nl - they also offer some houseboats which can be great in summer, but be careful with the location (some of them are quite far out).

Get a map of amsterdam and pinpoint where your potential accommodation is. The size on Amsterdam can be deceptive and it's best to be right in the centre (though avoid dam square, any of the pleins or the red light district!). The Jordaan is the nicest place to stay.

Good Luck!

 

About going to Amsterdam and check for (cheap) hotels on spot.. be carefull with that in high season, especially if you have limited money too spend. I once had to make a LOT of phonecalls to arrange an affordable place last minute for a Japanese fellow.. especially if you only stay in Amsterdam for a few days I would recommend making reservations before going there, so you don't risk spending your whole day having to look around for a good cheap place to stay. But than again, I like to have the basics arranged before I go somewhere.. but if you're not a control freak like me, you might enjoy going with the flow *grin*

 

just responding to the original post -- i think one reason why we see so much not-quite-bullseye dope about amsterdam on the web is that so many travel writers' views were formed a long time ago, and they haven't really been watching how the atmosphere in amsterdam is changing. i still love this city and love living here, but i do see its coolness in jeopardy.
love
s g collins

 

I think you're right, but it ain't only the travel writers who are stuck in the past. Many Dutch people like to play both ends so to speak: One the one hand they tell others how progressive and liberal their country, while at the same time they make comments about foreigners not integrating and voting for likes of Geert Wilders.

Even in this thread he have a microcosm of Dutch society. We have people claiming not to be patriotic and nationalistic at one miniute, then complaining about shop assistants speaking English the next. You can't have it both ways; either you are liberal and tolerate other cultures existing within your own and accept that others have the right to speak whatever language they want, or you are a right wing nationalist who believes that the state has a right to determin what language you speak and to force you to become Dutchified.

Make no mistake about it: Dutch tolerance and liberal policy making in certain areas is all about money. The image of the Netherlands as a pot smoking utopia is very profitable! They just get pissed off when you decide to stay more than a few weeks because they know that you'll eventually start to see it for what it is...

 

You REALLY don't get it sometimes, do you? But that's ok.. I'll try explaining it again.

When I think of patriotism and nationalism I think of forcing people to take over the complete culture. I love my country, but I love the mix of cultures here. However, it would be nice that if you walk into a shop in the middle of the capital city the person behind the counter would at least be able to speak the national language. Dutch still IS the official language here and even although English is starting to become the lingua franca because of all the tourists and immigrants, if you have a job where you are supposed to interact with people all day, it would be nice if you could speak the language. But it wasn't only that.. it was the rude attitude of the shop assistant.. not like 'I'm sorry, could you repeat that in English' (maybe it was an exchange student of new immigrant or sth, everyone has to learn).. but the mere 'what?' that baffled me.

Anyways.. yeah, the atmosphere sure is changing.. but in my opinion the balance isn't tipping over to the right/anti-social part.. but it's going in extremes. Like.. because the whole 'fear' vibe that is blowing over from the US and the UK, the policy of Verdonk and Balkenende etc etc.. the social climate is changing for the worse.. but at the same time a lot of people are standing up for their rights and those of others. There are a few BIG protests coming up.. people are on hungerstrike.. on a social level, it's already war. Although the mass of the mediocre middle hardly notices I think.

Anyway.. it's not like there is nothing that is being done against everything. A lot of people are fighting the current in many ways. Feels like an uphill battle most of the time, but someone has to do it. Ok.. writing this is striking me with sadness.. let me stop.

 

I actually posted about why so many english speaking people give up on trying to learn dutch a little while back. Interestingly, not one person bothered to comment on it. I guarantee that the shop assistant had been absused by several dutch customers already and told to go home several times before he/she got to serve you.

Believe me, so many people I have known came to amsterdam and threw themselves right into speaking dutch, only to give up after the constant abuse they received for their efforts. It's funny how this type of treatment does nothing but stengthen a persons resolve not to learn dutch!

There is also the fact that Amsterdam (the capital) is the most tourist orientated part of the country. Obviously it was still possible for this person to be a valued employee because they wouldn't have gotten the job on the first place if this wasn't the case. Many dutch employers I know love to employ native english speaking staff because the dutch work ethic can often leave much to be desired.

Amsterdam is quite unique in that almost every dutch person living or working there has a workable knowledge of english (I believe it's even compulsory in schools). Therefor, it's misleading to make a comment like 'I expect a someone working in the capital city of my country to speak the language'. The reality is that although you will never be accepted by the Dutch community unless you speak the language, it's possible to get by without speaking any dutch.

 

I love it how you manage to fit in these small insults and generalizations in your posts.

 

yes indeed jason.. This kind of things make me wanna beat you with a baseball bat.. I bet you're gonna say now "the dutch are really violent people and are willing to beat you with a baseball bat for insulting them"

 

LOL.. god I love you.

Now I bet you Jason is gonna say "the Dutch always stick together and are lesbo's in denial".. hehehe

 

the dutch are lesbo's in denial? i never noticed any denial! (tihi)
i know you guys are sick of this thread but i do find your ideas interesting.

about the language thing. i'm one of those english-speaking immigrants who's kinda put off by how english is seeping into dutch like a fungus. and especially by how easily dutch culture is absorbing the worst of american culture. (i also do have to concede that some of the worst things in american culture were invented by endemol, but that's another story.)

maybe i'm just lucky -- my own efforts to learn dutch have met with almost miraculous patience rather than abuse. i wish i had a beer for every "hoe zeg je ..." and "wat is het verschil tussen...?" fortunately with my friends i've been able to get two or three questions in with every beer.

now if i worked in a business that's conducted almost exclusively in english anyway, i could understand not requiring workable dutch in that office -- but if i were a clerk in a shop dealing with the general public, i would expect myself to be dutch competent and (in amsterdam) preferably english-capable too. (good thing i don't work in a shop.) however most of the service-level immigrants i've encountered in shops speak better dutch than english. in fact i think i get more practice speaking dutch with the non-natives, because unlike the dutch, they haven't been learning english since they were five.

love
s g collins

 

You have NO idea how refreshing it is to see a post like yours, because I was really starting to wonder if the Amsterdam folk are really as unpleasant to non-Dutch as they were said to be. I'm happy to hear that your experience is different. I agree with you that it's too bad that we are taking over so much of the US and that the Dutch language is getting so 'infiltrated' with English. I notice myself that sometimes I even have trouble finding a word in Dutch but have no trouble with the English word.. sometimes I even dream in English. But I do have to speak a lot of English in everyday life because of the people I hang with. I also start to use Surinam and Krio (west african) expression sometimes because those are my main cultural influences at the moment. Although it's a petty that things get lost, I think it's also one of the characteristics of the Dutch, absorbing foreign things. Just look at all the French and close-to-German words there are in the language.

Ah well.. culture shifts and changes.. that's the way it's always been. It's up to the people to make it shift in a direction that makes it nice to live with...

 

I am interested to know when it was that you first came to the netherlands and where it is that you hang out. I ask this because I notice that you are somewhat older (47) than myself. I have never once heard any native english speaking person say this of the dutch.

Indeed it used to be true that the Dutch were supportive and helpful to others learning their language. However, in the last 5 years they have been so obessesed with the notion that their country is being invaded by 'buitenlanders' that the minute they get the idea that you might actually be living in their country, they switch from 'oh, leuk' isn't it nice that you're making an effort' to 'go back to where you came from'.

In 5 years of travelling to Amsterdam (the last year and a half I which I have lived there), I have heard nothing but similar situations to my own. I know countless expats in amsterdam and not one of them has expressed an overal postive experience and reception from the locals when they attempted to learn dutch. I suspect that you moved to Amsterdam some time ago?

In regards working without speaking Dutch, what is the big deal? I know many people who go on working holidays all round the world. They apply for jobs in places that they like, live there for a while then move on. If someone arrives in Amsterdam, likes it and decides to look for work (which most have to do unless they have an unlimited budget), then I say good luck to them. It might be a little harder for them to communicate, but if they couldn't do the job then they wouldn't have been hired in the first place.

If the Dutch are so offened by this, then they should take their rage out on the employer, not the poor employee who is just tyring to earn enough money to get by.

Like I said earlier, I don't get pissed off if I go into a shop in Australia and the assistant doesn't speak brilliant english (they could have arrived one week ago for all I know). As long as I am able to get what i came for then who cares?

Likewise, if everyone in Australia was forced to learn chinese from a very young age, I wouldn't be at all surprised if i encountered people in the community who spoke only Chinese, having come here on the basis that they could get by using their native language (knowing that all Australians have a working knowldge of Chinese) *hypothetical only.

 

Jason.. I find it fascinating how you come here, criticise everything about our country and when we criticise you, you don't even respond to that..

 

What haven't I responded to?

The very fact that you would make a comment like you just did, only goes to prove my point that you will only read what you want to read, not what is actually written. I have mentioned many good things about Holland in this thread. If you read and attempt to understand any of what I have written, you will see that the only reason I remain here is because I care about "your" country. I would even go so far as to say that as a holder of Dutch citizenship myself, I even consider the netherlands to be my country also. That is why I take such an active interest in the direction in which it's heading.

I would have left this thread long ago had it not been for the countless private messages I've been getting from viewers of this board, thanking me for giving them a different perspective and opening their eyes to the real situation in the netherlands at the moment.

I realize that I'm not going to convince the dutch members here, nor do I really have a desire to. I do however, value your input as it would have been impossible for me to draw so much attention to this thread without your active participation. It seems that my original hypothesis is being proved accurate.

It's also great that we have been able to maintain a certain level of decorum thoughout this discussion. From my experience of message board discussions, this one would have to be somewhere near the top. It is certainly shaping up to be one of the more memorable threads on this forum. Thanks for the participation everyone! Keep up the good work!

 

very impressive how you can write the same thing every time in slightly different words.. But still you haven't responded to our criticism.. I'll refresh your memory, cause it seems you're the one who will only read what you want to read, not what is actually written.