Do any of you actually live in Amsterdam?

yes, you're right. now why don't you stop and think about why the situation has developed to this point? the dutch reaction has done and continues to do nothing but encourage more and more intolerance.

 

ROFL hahahahahaha...
Oh man.. You really got to get your facts straight.. Ali B is a dutch rapper, he's our 'knuffel morokaan'.. hehehehe.. http://www.alib.nl/
Mohammed B killed Theo van Gogh.. When you lecture us, we the dutch, then please don't make these kind of stupid mistakes..

hehehe.. that's pretty dumb

 

Oh and for the record.. The Netherlands are taken over by the right wing politicians that feed the fear of ordinary people.. The media and these politicians are mostly creating these problems.. But a lot of dutch people are aware that this country isn't the same anymore.. emigration numbers have never been this high..

 

I'm willing to take whatever critique you might have, but if you keep coming up with 'facts' like this it only shows how prejudice you are.. muslims in Holland have never been blamed for the death of Fortuyn. Actually, left wing people got allll the blame and in any discussion between left and right it's hard not to have that mentioned by someone. Since that day, all animal right activists have been put on the same line with the right wing extremists. Yeay. This is a whoooole different discussion from the muslim one.

Ali B? LOL.. hahaha.. ok.. serious.. get-your-facts-straight if you make claims like this!! You are talking about Mohamed B. And if you think you know all about him and why he did what he did, you might as well mention that his family was pretty well integrated, well liked in the neighbourhood and went to a very laid back mosque.. they even spoke Dutch at home, which is pretty rare for moroccans. However, when his mother died he got into such a emotional crisis that he just snapped.. he couldn't handle the loss and sought refuge in the strict Islamic rules. He went to a more extremist Mosque and even started threatening his sisters for being so 'westernized'. In the end, this desperate religious fanaticism accumulated and he killed Theo in a ritualistic manner. Why Theo? Because he was an asshole who had it coming. Theo was the kind of person who liked to offend everyone, if possible. Now if you start offending an unstable extremist, you have yourself a problem. Does this justify murder? Ofcourse not.. but it also shows that it's not an 'average moroccan' going about killing 'free speech' people.

Jason.. I'm really starting to have a problem with the way you are trying the make Dutch society look like a total failure.

I have a couple of muslims amongst my friends and we all get along great. They don't eat pork or drink booze, go to the mosque on Friday.. well yeay, whatever floats your boat. Live and let live is the motto we go by.. I think 80% of my friends is from non-dutch origine (west-africa, Surinam, Romania, Italy, Indonesia) and it's all good. Apperantly you seem to attrack the wrong kind of people. No offense.

I'm really sorry you seem to hold such a grudge against my people that you have to come here and 'warn' tourists about it. I'd like to give you the advice to just get over it and move on with your life. I hope you find a place on this planet where there is nothing to complain about and everything is just nice and warm and fuzzy. Good luck.

 

No.

The problems were created by the former "paars" by getting al those immigrants here.

 

I think it is best to divide 'immigrants' in three different groups.. that makes it easier for everyone to talk about:

-gastarbeiders
-refugees
-(ex) colonials

Refugees in general are a very small group who hardly cause any problems. They are looking for a better future and are willing to work very hard (even though they are often not allowed to work). I think for now, we should exclude this group from further discussion.

(ex) colonials, like Surinam people, Antillians etc have a slightly different cultures from the native Dutch culture, but the gap isn't that big because they've been living under our influence for a long time. The only problematic part of this group are young antillian guys who weren't born in The Netherlands. The trouble they cause is however from a very different nature than the who 'integration debat' we seem to be having now. For now, I'd like to exclude this group here as well.

The main problem imho, are the 'gastarbeiders' (don't know the english word atm). There are a lot of people who came to this country to work.. Chinese community is pretty large, as well as the Turkish, Moroccan and Polish groups. The Chinese tend to keep to themselves and whatever troubles they have (like gambling) is solved within that group. Their kids are very well integrated usually, although they do prefer marriage within their own 'clan'. Also, most of them are buddhists which gives them a very easy going nature. The Turkish are muslim and have a strong bond as a group as well. The first generation here is not so well integrated I think, but the later ones do a pretty good job of fitting in and combining the two cultures. Polish people are not life-time settlers here but merely seasonal workers, which excludes them for now. The Moroccans here are the 'biggest' problem, because they hold on to a culture that doesn't even exist anymore in their country of origine. Basically, the clock has stopped ticking for them when they left their country, even though Moroccan society kept on evolving. The result of that is that Moroccans here are more strict than those in Morocco.. and the kids (the later generations) are confused as to what their identity should be. Can talk for hours about this but don't want to take up all the space. Bottom line is: the children of gastarbeiders should only have 1 passport.. and realize that they live in THIS country.. that doesn't mean that they should give up their own culture, but they have to meet us halfway.. same goes for the Dutch.. they shouldn't be so afraid of them.. and that IS to blame on the current government (and folks like Bush and Blair).. muslim DOES NOT equal terrorist or extremist. Period.

Oh besides.. before anyone starts blaming the Dutch again for whatever.. I've experienced a hell of a lot more racism and hate between minority groups themselves than from the majority towards the minority. Chinese people can be very very biased for example.

But yeah.. Paars sucked.. for a lot of reasons.

 

When the first 'gastarbeiders' came to this country 'paars' wasn't in power.. The problems started because the current government at that time didn't oversee that they would stay and it would become such a problem..
But as velvet said paars sucked for a lot of different reasons, but the way it is now sucks even more..

 

Admittedly i made a mistake with the name (a thousand pardons I beg of you!).

For the most part, you seem quite open minded and intelligent. However, you also seem to suffer from something that is very common in dutch society: an inability to accept cultural critisism from others.

fyi, you might also take notice of the fact that I am half dutch, i have native amsterdam family stretching back over 200 years, so please quit it with the 'us' and 'them' crap.

You've obviously also jumped on the moroccan bandwagon. a few years ago it was the turks that everyone hated, now the media has shifted the focus to moroccans. the only 'evidence' to support the assertion that moroccans are any worse than other minorities is bogus figures and statistics put forth by Geert Wilders.

i am the first to admit that there are many problems with australian society. i believe that open admission and discussion of problems is a positive thing and is necessary in order to improve. i also admit that i have no idea what it's like to live in my own country as an immigrant. i would never be so arrogant as to invalidate the experience of another because i cannot personally relate to it.

I have sat through hours of dutch integration classes and i think that it's safe to say that i've had significant first hand experience with the current dutch solution to immigration and it's only making the problem worse.

the only hope that dutch society has is that young people (such as yourself) reject the current ideology of the dutch mainstream. otherwise dutch culture will truly be lost forever.

 

I should have prefaced this whole thread by saying that I actually love amsterdam and have done so for as long as i can remember. That is precisely why it pains me so much to see what has happened over the past few years. Amsterdam in just 1998 was a completely different place to now. It also pains me to see the many awesome dutch characteristics and cultural peculiarities are being overshadowed by ugliness.

The Dutch have much to be proud of, however they have also made a lot of mistakes. It's time to acknowledge that Dutch does not equal perfection. Only then will it be possible to see the good aspects and learn from the bad.

Some days i would encounter a few really great dutch people, the kind who i used to meet all the time in amsterdam (several years ago), and it would remind me of everything that is being lost.

Dutch people are very stubborn (it's a cultural stereotype, i know, but it's true) as is much of Europe. That is why all of Europe is having similar problems. Dutch culture specifically needs to adapt and evolve.

Im sorry to any dutch people who have taken my posts as an attack. I realise that it may have come across that way. Despite everything, I do feel half dutch. I do feel a connection with what happens over there. I want to see the netherlands come out of this a better country.

I guess it also pisses me off a little coming to this forum and reading about how amsterdam is awesome because you can buy weed there, when the whole society is in jeopardy. Who gives a fuck about the weed and the sex (everywhere has that), Amsterdam has a lot more to love then that.

 

There are 2 million dutch of non-dutch origins and there are 15 million dutch.

Still 50% of all crime is commited by the dutch of non-dutch origins.

Explain that. They just don't apreciate holland.

 

Well, You're absolutely right here..

But the way you come across is as if you know better.. We have lived here all our lives, don't you think we know whats going on?? We do know.. But we still live here and are trying to make the best of it, and there are a lot of great people and places here.. So why focus on the bad?? This thread is mostly visited by tourist who are mostly interested in drugs and sex.. And don't really care about the politics.. So what should we do then? Explain the reasons why theo van gogh was murdered to every tourist who comes here who wants to know where you can buy the best pot?

I think your intentions are good, but directed to the wrong crowd.. If you want a discussion about dutch politics try posting in the dutch forum..

 

Most crimes are being commited by people from the lowest social economical classes and the most non-dutch people are in the lowest classes. Not because they don't appreciate holland, but for a lot of different reasons.. When you say this, you're not thinking..

 

I think any locals in their right mind were outside in the sunshine we had the pleasure of receiving this weekend and not behind their keyboards discussing politics. I spent the day skating in Twiske, and only busted my ass once!

 

Hey Jason,

i still think you need to make better friends. the people you hang with are bringing you down.

Also it is not cool to bitch about any country other than the United States of America. You must understand this.

 

Again.. you beat me to it. Exactly.. if you filter out the SES (social economic status) you will find that most crimes are commited by the low-class people.. now, the question we have to ask ourselves is why a lot of immigrants are still in the low wage classes. One explaination is that the people who came here to work on the land and in the factories were people with little education.. they have their minds set on hard work instead of achieving some kind of educational status. In a westernized country as ours, that is not the best way of coping anymore, because you have to have some kind of decent diploma to do regardless what. I you have no diploma, you'll get the low-paid jobs.

Another explanation would be that immigrants are discriminated, but I think that with all the positive discrimination that the governmental jobs are portraying that it would be more easy for me to get a job if I weren't native Dutch.

 

how true. i hate expatica, whenever you disagree with what theyre saying, they say you cant handle your own country being criticized. wtf, i criticize it all the time.

 

LOL.. how true! Definately! And we can handle critique towards ourselves as well I think.. that's how you learn and evolve as a person

 

That made me laugh

 

Sorry, but that is bullshit. Anyway, the discrimination that makes it virtually impossible for an immigrant to become part of dutch society, is the discrimination of the local people, the people you come across on the trains and in the street.

As long as Dutch people continue to use terms like 'allochtoon' and 'autotoon', this crap is not going to end. A person moroccan decent who speaks dutch, and was born in the netherlands is DUTCH! So too is someone who has lived in the netherlands for 20 years and holds a passport.

I was discriminated against almost everyday in amsterdam for daring to live there and speak english with my english speaking partner. I can only begin to imagine how much more intense that must be for an actual immigrant.

Quit all the crap about not appreciating holland (that was a perfect example of the way most dutch people think). They also like to throw out the old 'if you don't like it why don't you leave' (as if it's that simple for most) and 'you should be greatful that we let you stay here'. That is also a load of crap. Most of these people were invited my the dutch in the first place.

 

I'm afraid they are right about this. While it's true that Dutch people often critisize their own country AMONGST THEMSELVES (complete lack of customer service being the most common complaint), when an outsider dares to do the same thing they are greeted with a shitload of oranjepride and 'why don't you leave' 'we don't want you here anyway'.

Dutch people seem to believe that only native dutch people have a right to express negative opinions about the netherlands. Whether they like it or not, expats and immigrants from a part of their society and they have a right to a voice.