Do you think there is a god?

I agree with you, we have to accept that we just dont know some things, but i would add that i think it is pointless to focus on the idea of god so much as a thing you wonder about, it is an idea with as little reason to focus on as any other idea one could create. And if it is to be contemplated i think the word "god" should be ignored, because it has so much attached to it that it is a limitation to use it, a poluted word. If one wishes to open their mind it seems like an odd place to star at the ideas others had to deal with their daily lives that have been altered and interpreted, it seems more logical to start from where one is, in their life, and try to make no asumptions. Belifes are a pointless and dangerous thing, and asumptions are blinding.

 

It might not be that obvious because it might permiate all of existence. I am not religious, but logically speaking if all of life is based on some other force how could you separate life and this force?

True it might not. But order does not generally erupt unprovoked from chaos. I am pretty adept and physics and I have found no reason why the universe would produce complex, thinking animals without some Other, not-yet-understood force.

What I meant by that is that our existence on this planet is chock-full of unknowns, mysteries and questions in my opinion. There is another basic school of thought... This is what it is, science can tell us how chemical reactions work so life is explained and the 'real' world is exactly what we se and nothing more. To beleive there is nothing more in the universe you must assume that humans have got it all figured out. I don't buy that, but some people do.

I find the more I question about the universe and the more I ask myself why the more beauty I find int he systems around me. Sure 'why?' is unaswerable but every question has at some point been unaswerable. Scientists do not persue questions with answers. In fact often the most unaswerable questions are a good starting point, especially when the answers you seek are bigger than all that is known.

 

Pablo.. I agree that God is a poor word to use exactly because it has so much meaning attached to it. When I say the word I am pretty confident that few share the meaning i intend. So as a word it fails me.

Beleif and assumption can be dangerous, but you have to remember that that is ALL we have to work with. All of our science, for all its acheivements, is still based on beleif and assumption. Read some of Hawkin's work. He is probably the most brilliant scientist alive, yet he rightly asserts that just because something was one way yesterday does not mean it will be tomorrow.

Our entire collective intelligence is based an a scant few thousand years of development and although we ASSUME we know much, how do we really know what we know? We only awoke into consciousness yesterday (in historical terms) and as an infant, all we take for granted is assumption.

 

we'll the diference, is that science alows itself to change, it is based on the best truth it can come up with, a structured aproach to gaining knowledge. That is why i think it is better than belife systems that tell you that you must belive something or else. Ones like budhism when practiced to encourage learning and exploring, are good in my opinion. Its just when people want to belive something for a reason other than its likelyhood that it becomes foolish. like a bumpersitcker i saw that said "the bif bang theory: god spoke and bang it happened" what is the point of saying this other than to reasure ones self of their calming simple veiw on the matter?

 

Ever since I was small I've been tought into believing in the existence of God, the bible, Jesus, the whole package....but now that I'm older and I've developed my own sense of beleif in things I kinda put aside everything I've been brought up into believing and created my own criteria on religious beliefs...I do believe that there is something out there...I'm not sure what it is....Like a God or something..But I don't beleive in the whole creation of Adam and Eve and the Bible and all of that....It just doesn't make sense to me....I don't know...The whole issue with the Devil and God and the do's and don'ts of the bible, it kinda sounds made up to me...I mean there isn't really any proof that Jesus did exist, we only know he did because of the supposenly divine writings of the bible and the witnessess....The bible to me is a book made up by religious creators of their criteria of what's wrong and right and how they think man kind should live...If you stop to think you'll notice that every religion no matter how similiar they are they all have a chapter or two of the bible either changed or removed and they all claim that their bible is sacred and original..Like the catholic church for example, they have added like five chapters already and modified the bible to their convinience..I think if something is supposenly as authentique and blessed as the bible then there shouldn't be so many versions of it...And talking about the bible if it is so sacred to them and all why do they disrespect it and not follow it properly....I mean for example, the beliefs of saints and symbols of some religions...In the bible if I recall states that there shouldn't be any beliefs of such kind and that's the first thing they do, especially the catholic church....Also I have noticed that some religions post out rules created by them of how one should dress, believe and how by following all of this you'll be saved..blah..blah..blah..and how you'll be judged by the eyes of god and so on if you don't follow their rules and disrespect the readings of the church and so on.....I think that If there is a god he shouldn't judge you at all, cause supposenly judging is a sin and if he created us he created us with the purpose of being free, not chained and withdrawed from exposing our true emotions and selves, if not what is the purpose of him creating us...To control us...that just doesn't sound right to me.....We are suppose to be free, to be responsible and the own judgers of our actions...To be our true selves and be happy...to enjoy our lives not to be miserable just for the act of being saved...If so then why live...why be born.....Cause trust me no religious follower is truly happy....no one who is under control of their true emotions, feelings and selves could be truly happy..and I don't think god would want that...I don't think that he would like the fact of us being miserable so he could supposenly save us...to me that just doesn't sound right...The whole idea of the saving issue doesn't sound right period....I think that we live and then die and that's the end of our existence, may be our spirits will float around a bit or something...may reencarnate or something like that, but nothing like the bible states of heaven and hell and all that...I just believe that there is something out there that did create us..but created us to be free, to be ourselves....free from judgement of right and wrong......and thinking about it i don't believe that there is anything such as right and wrong, if you stop to think about it it's all relative...cause what could be right to you is probably wrong to another person...similar to religion and the existence of god and all...And about science I kinda believe on the whole issue of evolution and all even though it confuses me a bit, but it certainly makes more sense to me then the whole religious issue....It all depends on your standards really....on how you view life and it's un explained ways..

 

A linguist can easily proove or disproove the existence of God...

 

gdkumar

Wellmet my friend.

You will hear truth.
Occam does not remember saying this. Much is happing here with deep emotion.
Distraction results in poor memory retention if one is to believe the 'psuedo
science' of mind.

He has re-read his post 3 times. It seems sound. It is even eloquent.
But occam is no poet.
Much recently, comes from a place of childish wonder. Human concerns seem
so petty.

I hope you now feel better

Today, a black and yellow flutterby [the new oxford definition of butterfly]
Landed on a fence next to occam as he watched the wonderfull sea roil in it's majesty.
This one. Stuck his eye to within a cm of the insect. It did nothing.
Not the slightest mistep in the rithmic idle beat of its wings.
It looked back.

Then flew away.

Occam

 

pablo

Exactly why occam calls it 'direction' [in reality]
not god.

GOD
Is a word of religion
Religion can not even decide which god is real
religion is a mass off eyescratching idealists and opportunists.

If religion cannot make up it's mind who's god is real
Reason might step in and make the choice for them.
Occam does not wish to see this.
Such is worst off all worlds
Remember auschwitz


Occam

 

"True it might not. But order does not generally erupt unprovoked from chaos. I am pretty adept and physics and I have found no reason why the universe would produce complex, thinking animals without some Other, not-yet-understood force."

Heisenberg. What order?

 

Purple Haze

quote you
"I mean there isn't really any proof that Jesus did exist"

There is much verification.
as much as tiberius


Occam

 

I have always been very interested in Religion...and if you seriously read into the main points you can see that there is one God (supreme being) and that all the stories are pretty much the same...the reason that they are different religions is do mostly to regionalism and cultural differences...last night I read a chapter from a book of Vedic liturature about Sri Krsna and then I read the first 7 chapters of Mathew in the Bible and though the names of the people are different and some of the situations...the messages are almost exactly the same...so when it comes down to who's God is real...there's only one...its just a matter of where you're from that tells what you call him or not....

I'm not saying that you have to believe me...this is just a conclusion that I have come to after 2 months of being exposed to Vedic liturature, a life time of Christian liturature, and a life time of studying other cultures...

 

but where has this gotten you really, it proves that most religeons belive there is one god. And beyond that no one can come up with much of an idea let alone evidence of that idea, of what god is. So why bother, why not just absorb the thing you can trust most, your own sences, true even they may lie to you, but theyre the best you have

 

"last night I read a chapter from a book of Vedic liturature about Sri Krsna"

Krshna is not even in the Vedas...

The "Hindu" one god (best expounded in the Upanishads) and the Christian are completely different. The Christian god decided to create the universe whereas The Eternal Absolute from the Upanishads did not "create" the universe, but the universe is the manifestation of it. The universe is essentially a "chunk" of god.

 

I know you are, but what am i? Chunk that is. I wanna see god do the truffle shuffle.

Seriously, the decision to create is part of the experience of time- The christian god is eternal and timeless and arising out of itself as it is itself- just like the eternal absolute which is but a chunk of self. Decision is part of the eternal absolute.

Strange, as usuall coincidences happen to me from God- Listening to everlast sing about knowing what its like to have to choose. I do.

 

SvgGrdnBeauty

Agreed. The god of 'the world monotheism' [judaeism,christianity, islam]
Is accepted by the theologians of those religions as the same god.
[though MANY of their flock might contest this]
But there are MANY religions who define their gods as different to the monotheism.
Just as Odin is different to christ the saviour/god on earth.

You propose that geoposition/culture defines the character of THE god
which is actually one god.
And in a very broard sense this may be so.
All are expressions of a desire.

And that desire is the key.
Religion 'invents gods'
It invents a god to fulfill the desire to understand reality and the MOL
And then HUMANS say what that god says is the meaning of life.
They make it up...
Example: Occam considers most of the bible and koran to be fiction.

Reason. Says there is indicative evidence for direction in reality.
That 'god' as religion might call it.
Is supported by evidence. But NOT conclusive evidence.
Science, ironically, is now the human race's most accepted method to finding
a 'god'
And many religious people accept this.
For science/reason is not about debunking others.
It does not kill those who do not agree.
It s about being accurate to what IS.

Those of religion that say 'they know'
Know very little.
Occam has met thousands of them.

75% did not understand the words.
'Subjective, objective, theology or even, theory'

Occam

 

Kharakov

"The christian god is eternal and timeless and arising out of itself as it is itself-"

Eternal? Timeless?
What, can arise out of itself..
If god is eternal it does not need to 'arise out of itself'
[a logical contradiction]

"just like the eternal absolute which is but a chunk of self. Decision is part of the eternal absolute."

Eternal absolute? what is that?

The only eternal absolute that occam knows of is POSSIBLY.
Duration.

All you say sounds like the stories religion makes up to validate itself in a world of logic/reason.
That world came after religion had a death grip on everyone due to the fact that just about everyone was illiterate and ignorant.

Occam is neither. [ to a degree]
Define an 'eternal absolute.' that is a structure/ system that has always existed..
Who defined the structure/system that allows a god to exist?
God?
If so , how did god make a system to allow itself to exist before it existed.
And be ETERANAL at the same time..

contradiction....
religion falls down HARD,, due to it;s inherent contradiction.

Religion says. 'we cannot understand god'
true
But we will.
And in so doing
REMOVE these silly contradictions.

A fool will say the stars are beyond our reach.
A wise man will never stop trying to reach them.
For nowhere does it say we cannot.

Occam

 

Yeah bro. You are right there. But you are wrong as well. I'd be damned if I couldn't except an eternal contradiction.

High quality H2O brother. High quality H2O.

Are you saying that i am addressing religious principles to one who cannot live with logical contradiction? Mayhaps you do not enough to judge facts and I do. I pity the fool who don't drink no mimosas.

Whelp, consider this: maybe God does not have to address the question of where God came from- as you don't either. Ask a stupid question and you will get a non logical answer. Hey, duhhh, <droll drips from corner of mouth> God, where you come from? I came from me.

Fuck religion then. Just look for God. Don't be an idiot- God is out there, I don't go to church, I listen to Deicide (awesome death metal band), hang out with God every day. God does cool shit for me, plays little pranks on me, etc. BAsically the most entertaining entity in the universe, if you ask me.

Nah, God makes fools for those who know God to laugh at.... lol... not that it is a bad thing that you are a fool- i rather enjoy your company. The funniest thing about a fool is recognizing that you went through those same thoughts at an earlier time in life.

The rich became the beggar, and the fool became the wise. A fool is always convinced of his wisdom.... I'll leave that one for you to disect bro.

 

"Today, a black and yellow flutterby [the new oxford definition of butterfly]
Landed on a fence next to occam as he watched the wonderfull sea roil in it's majesty.
This one. Stuck his eye to within a cm of the insect. It did nothing.
Not the slightest mistep in the rithmic idle beat of its wings.
It looked back.

Then flew away.

Occam"


Dear Occam,my friend ;

Who says you are not a poet ? That is so nice to read ! Thank you.

I knew the meaning of flutter but not flutterby. If you had not mentioned about the Oxford definition then my quest for the word and its meaning would have started. I would have had to run for the authority who knew about it(Oxford new dictionary). Asking people who did not know about flutterby would not have been of much help, rather they would have confused me more.

There is this word, 'God' and seemingly we are all blind and ignorant about it.
As we try to know about it by the dint of our own merit and understanding, naturally, we tend to confuse ourselves more and more. It appears that since the quest is still on we should look for the authority in the subject who can really tell us what is what.

We have not known or learnt about the people who are known to have attained realization. We have not been to such people who are still living. We have not bothered to find them out to know the truth.

I also do not know about God because I have not seen Him. But I have felt His presence through inexplicable incidents which we term as miracles. I have not seen Him but felt Him through his manifestations....like I have never seen electricity but felt it through nasty shocks and its manifestations (Lamps,bells,this computer and endless things.)

I like the way you talk about 'direction'. I remember, in another beautiful post you gave us another wonderful literary piece of work with the line
"compacting by contracting into 'totality' "

Well, I accept this 'direction' and 'totality' as God........ Do you ?

With lots of love..........Kumar.

 

Give an example of a contradiction that doesn't have to do with religion.

 

Kharakov

Amazing..Occam is compiling a tape to play in the car..while he writes this.
He was taping Fade to Black [metallica] while he read your post..
From his favourite album . ride the lightning.

Occam used to play a gibson V through a double quad stack topped with an un- preamped marshall. [and covered 'for whom the bell tolls' and 'creeping death' both from that album.. also a slayer track a few times]

Does this re-orient your perception of occam?

Thank you.

Occam