Do you want a Co-pilot on your flight being paid minimum wage?

Isn't that the reason for "Doing what you love"? So that the money wont matter.

It's a simple equation folks. They're trying to eliminate Co-pilots and eventually, pilots too, I'm sure. When people start quitting and there keeps being scrutiny over the quality of help, the goverment will step in and offer $X for advanced navigation control technology, if they don't have it up to snuff already.

The airline industry has become far too large, and we're going to see that change drastically over the next 7-10 years, if not during the next 5.

As for working a tough job for a shit wage..... too bad so sad. I walked out of my job because I refuse to do work without being paid what I'm worth. Everybody has that same opportunity, it just depends on whether or not they can handle the consequences of that action

 

16 thousand dollars a year was a fair salary for a non skilled person---in 1970.lol.--It's rather pathetic to think that some-one who is a co-pilot on a plane is earning minmum wage. De-regulation I guess. BTW a sidenote in the UK the minimum wage is about twice that in the US,and it's still quite low there. Another sidenote:Where I reside if any employer even offered anything less than 12-14 dollars an hour to start for even the most unskilled basic job,people would laugh at him/her.

 

I take care of ppl's kids, ones with mental issues and behavioral problems... I'm not making much money... It is barely enough to stay afloat in this economy with the high cost of living and rent... Same thing as when I took care of senior citizens. The kitchen staff made more money than the aides.

It sucks, & you'd think we'd be doing better considering the nature of the work, but the big bucks go to the ceo and others...
On the other hand, you'd pretty much have to give a shit to take that much shit for such low pay.
We should still be making a buck or two more an hour. I will probably move on to something else eventually.

 

That's the attitude that allows employers to pay whatever wage they want. They know that a lot of people are not fond of change, so once they get them to stay for a little while it's less likely that they will leave.

So the key is not to offer nice competitive wages, the key instead is to offer JUST enough to get folks in the door. Nature generally takes care of the rest.

 

I just moved into this apartment.. Also am still putting in my 1st year of work in a state I recently moved to.
It helps me find work to be able to show that I've been a dependable employee at one facility/business here.

Not as apathetic and complacent as it seems upon closer inspection.
I can see where that would apply to someone who has been working there for years with no positive changes, like a decent raise or something.

 

I do realize what you are saying about having just relocated and such, and I will admit you're not quite what I had in mind with that statement.

But you do know the ones I'm talking about. Leave work every day of their life feeling unappreciated and underpaid. Tell people every day how they hate their job and they're going to quit.

Then come back the next morning bitching even louder.

And as far as my co-pilot goes. I actually want him to make nothing. Make it part of pilot training that they have to co-pilot so many hours or something.

The more expenses they can cut to save me money on air fare and give me more money to spend on liquor for my vacation, the happier I am and the more likely I am to fly with them.

 

The article said first officers were making $23/hr. I assume that's what she was making.

This plane that they were flying was far above a simple two-engine prop. She was only 24 and didn't seem to have the discipline for operating a plane that complicated.

The transcripts also showed that she and the pilot were talking small talk below 10,000 feet when they could have spent that time dealing with the icing and other issues. She also made a remark about that much ice freaking her out.

IIRC, that particular aircraft has de-icing equipment built into the wing leading edge. Something could have been done about the ice if the crew had better judgment.

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http://www.lloyds.com/CmsPhoenix/DowJonesArticle.aspx?id=429470

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I know she doesn’t work 40 hours a-week but damn, doesn’t McDonald’s
pay more that 7.70 an hour


Hotwater

 

I'm aware.

a jobs pay will go down when they can find someone who will do it for less, so, colgan airlines found people who dream of being pilots, and told them that this is how it is.

blackjack dealers get paid less because they are usually middle aged people who have given up here, when valets are usually high school kids from mcqueen, reed, or reno high (the nice part of town schools) or college students from the university, for them it is just a job, they don't care, and they rotate themselves out, and it's hard to find someone who will do it below a certain threshhold because you need someone who is a certain degree of clean cut to take peoples cars from them, and represent your casino.

and that costs more than honesty here.

I know that very well

I was just thinking this was the prime example of a larger problem.

 

Isn't that for co-pilots who are on-call and in their first couple of years? I could be wrong. I thought they only work part-time though, thus the salary wouldn't equate to minimum wage.
Like I said, I might be ill informed on this one.

 

she has signed a contract that says that ny other job she takes must be approved by colgan, if she is on call (which, she probably is, which makes the last minute flight make even more sense)

then they probably won't let her have a second job.

and so she only can possibly earn the 17,000

which, I dunno about you, but as far as I know, that's not much to live on.

 

Id think its the equivalent of letting a teenager drive a gasoline tanker on a Permit..
Somethings bound to go wrong..

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090516/ap_on_go_ot/us_airline_pilots

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this is just great.. Now baggage fees are going up..

 

I think companies should be forced to declare what low pay they give.
Its like saying "we don't give a fuck about customer service, and we don't care if the staff are soooo bitter and exploited that they spit in everyone's food".

Some of the worst offenders are posh hotels and hotels, wealthy companies etc.
Pure greed and class hate really.

 

haha.. Exactly.

There was a programmes about the airline industry a while ago. Long story short they said they're getting paid peanuts, the airline industries don't give a fuck, once you're in that industry it's hard to get training for other things, blahdiblah.

I disagree with them blaming her. It's not her fault she's getting paid minimum wage and what with the credit crunch and lack of monies, no wonder the dude went fatigued. It's not like they thought they were going to crash.. right?

 

I agree. I have an old friend who was a flight attendant right out of college. It was the same for her. She had to move to Newark, be on-call all the time and got paid shit.
But after those first few years both the co-pilots and the flight attendants make bank.
I don't know why they start them out so low though? I know for flight attendants it's because it's competetive and they can do it.

 

I do not see any reason why that would happen. The problem is a simple one, computers fail. People fail too, as practically all air accidents have some human error somewhere along a great chain of failures. At the moment computer systems are getting more and more sophisticated. They can help the pilots control more and more of the aircrafts functions. The key there is help; they are there exclusively to compliment the pilot. They alert him when something is wrong. Things that the pilot would have never known was an issue until he was told after landing, or crashed, are now presented to the humans at the pointy end as soon as they occur by means of beeping sounds, flashing lights, and displays telling them exactly what is wrong and exactly where, so that the fail safes can be employed, or the problem otherwise solved. There are also devices called stick pushers and stick shakers that will quite literally push the stick forward to stop the aircraft pitching up too much or shake the stick vigorously to draw the pilot’s attention if he is flying the aircraft too close to its stall angle. And if the computers fail, there is always a backup system. For all important systems there are 3 fail safes. Yes, a failsafe even for the failsafe. Basically, the pilots turn off the erroneous system and use backups to safely land the plane.

Also, I do not see the First Officer being binned just yet either. Just a few days ago in a high profile example, a Captain literally died in mid-flight, leaving it up to his highly skilled First Officer to land the aircraft at the nearest safe runway. There are countless examples where one pilot or another have been incapacitated, and the other having to put the aircraft down. Pilots are not allowed to have the same meal option; in case one is contaminated both won’t get sick.

I would not say that the airline industry has grown too large either. At the moment there are roughly 20,000 airliners (everything from Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 turboprops such as the one that crashed starting this discussion, to Airbus A380s) flying in the world at the moment. Most of them will be in passenger service for 20-30 years, some even longer as cargo aircraft. It is projected that over the next few years this number will get much larger.

As someone who will likely end up working for one of the major airframers and helping design their next generation of planes, I don’t really know what to make of this, As an environmentalist, I would rather that 2 Boeing 737 aircraft in service today be replaced with 1 Boeing 777 aircraft to fly the same flights, with half the frequency, allowing massive fuel savings. This is impractical due to the fact that the respective aircraft are designed for very much different things, and would be a business catastrophe.

That said there is massive inefficiency in the current market. There is overcompetiveness with many routes having 4 or more airlines offering flights. This results in multiple cases of aircraft flying practically empty at a high frequency, which I find morally unacceptable due to emissions, and it means that airlines don’t make profits and drive each other into the ground.

I do not believe there are too many airplanes for the market, but I do believe that there are too many airlines. Fewer airlines on a route ensure competition to keep fares reasonable for passengers, and allow airlines to sustain themselves. Flying today is cheaper than it has ever been in real terms. We are seeing the effects of it now when the economies are turning sour. Many airlines are failing, and unfortunately many people are losing their jobs. Many more airlines are being absorbed by others, which will hopefully lead to more efficient fleet applications than we see today. Many more will fall before the end of this "Credit Crunch" (which I think sounds more like a breakfast cereal than a major economic failure).

When a First Officer flies his or her first load of passengers he has finished training. He has become fully qualified on the type of aircraft, with many hours in real flight on it, with multiple takeoffs and landings on type. He will have much more experience on other aircraft types previous. He will have flown in the simulator many times simulating just about every form of emergency that could befall their aircraft. If anything happens to the Captain, they are expected to be able to put the aircraft down safely, whilst dealing with any other in flight emergency that may have befallen the aircraft. Whilst doing this they are expected to advise air traffic control of the situation, their intentions, number of souls onboard, and what emergency assistance they require at the airport.

When you step onboard any passenger aircraft, be it a 12 seater seaplane, or a Boeing 747, do not be under any impressions that the First Officer is still in training. It is true that any day is a learning experience, and there will initially be things they are not allowed to do, for example there may be a maximum crosswind speed that they are allowed to land in before having to let the captain do it until they have a few more hours. But do not take this to mean that the First Officer is any way under qualified for the job of saving your life in an emergency.

The pay that most junior pilots straight out of training is often terrible. Unfortunately it is a necessity of the business, as the profit margins for commuter flying is so slim. The only reason they do it is that the higher paid jobs with larger jets on other airlines are extremely competitive; any you need considerable experience to get hired for a position. Therefore most new pilots in the US get really really bad wages flying small, nevertheless state of the art, aircraft as a stepping board to something bigger.

Whilst your comment that this aircraft was "far above a simple two-engine prop" is absolutely correct, I think it is grossly unfair to question the character and discipline of the pilots, unless you can back up the claims. The Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 is perhaps the most modern aircraft in its class. The propellers are driven by two superb jet engines, is controlled by means of ultra modern computer systems and cockpit displays, it cruises at high speed with unparalleled fuel economy. Any pilot that is in that flight deck has demonstrated that they have the knowhow to deal with the responsibilities. The complicatedness of the aircraft is completely irrelevant. The pilot has no business knowing how to strip an engine, or how to replace a dodgy gauge. The instruments in the cockpit are there to show the pilots how things are doing, not how they are working. Age has no part in a discussion about whether a person has a place in that flight Deck, but by demonstrating her skills to the relevant instructors she had previously displayed that she had every right to be in the right seat in that aircraft.

The NTSB investigation is still ongoing with respect to the icing and cockpit chatter, so I will not speculate as to the bearing in this incident. I will say however that I do not see why there could not be any chatter in the flight deck. There will be flurries of activity in the flight deck, going from 1 air traffic controller to another, changing headings, altitudes, airspeeds etc, but punctuating these are long periods of flying between these flurries, why not talk? The drivers amongst us will know that having a passenger next to you to converse with can be instrumental in keeping you awake and coherently enough to operate safely behind the wheel, so why not in a plane? Especially when fatigue appears as though it may have had an influence in this tragedy.

With most airlines pilots will be rostered to fly some days, on standby others, and have the rest off. Junior pilots will have little say over which days they are on standby and off. On days they are rostered to fly they will generally fly 4 or more legs, often 6 or 8 if the flights are short distance. On standby days they can be at home, but must be able to be at the airport to fly in 2 hours, and they must be as clear of alcohol in their systems as any other pilot on a regular flying day.

I am sure there are airlines that allow pilots to fly on more of a part time basis, but I would wager that these pilots will either tend to be quite senior, or the airline a very small operation.

As I have commented, the pilots that are in the flight deck are trained up t the hilt. Whilst they may lack flight time, the only way you can get that is with experience, and they will be prepared as anyone can be to deal with whatever happens.

Agreed. It is horrific the rates of pay some people are forced to endure. Flight training from start to an airliner type rating can cost upwards of £100,000. For the pilots fresh out of training going to an airline with that much debt and being asked to work for such a pittance is nothing short of insulting.

Sorry if I have overanalysed anything, poke me if I have missed anything. Rest in peace to all souls lost in this tragedy.

 

best response to a thread I started ever.

I was going to ask if you went to embry riddle (school I wanna go to) until I saw money in pounds.

they are the post secondary education of more than half of the commercial pilots in the u.s. and also have an engineering program.