Does God Exist?

Nope, It's a theistic fallacy of moving the goal posts, the theists asserts specific attributes then when those are responded to, they want to try and change the meaning of those attributes.

 

I would like to see 2 things explained really. Hope you will

Why can OWB be called a scumbag because he demands such a thing, and you are not a scumbag for demanding the things you do from him?

And more importantly: if I am wrong in my first reaction to this post why does it feels that this thread is over for you? Is it only about OWB's opinions and beliefs? Or yours? Or the disagreement you guys have?

 

Theistic beliefs are simply very diverse. If you think theists, even when they are part of the same religion, have to believe the same things (or all acknowledge the same 'goal posts' so to say) you are already going wrong. This is not some shady tactic by theists in this discussion or something! When people insists it is so they are oversimplifying/stereotyping theistic belief on itself. As always: things are not as simply or uniform as it is told at first (by for example the doctrines of a religion). The leaders and certain advocates of such a religion might say it is, and we are all sinners and heretics for not doing so but to go along with that and say this is why both religion and theists are always flawed in their beliefs and less reasonable than atheists for example is quite gullible and I think, mostly done to suit their own argument.

 

I'm referring to the theist who makes such assertions...

 

You don't have to agree with such theists And why are they making such assertions in the first place? Isn't it because they are asked to share their views?

And in a topic so broad and interesting, why focus solely on this kind of theist when there are so many more, different and interesting ideas and beliefs regarding this topic? Why judge/convict theistic belief as a whole because of theists you find utterly disagreeable? Not sure you are doing this (as I am not primarily talking about you), but most others you are talking for when you anwer for them are doing this. They shit on the concept of God in general because of theists like these. But if they can't approach/handle the concept of God(s) without these negative associations of a few people they are going ridicilously wrong in a serious discussion.

 

Smarter or sneakier?

Seems to me if they believed in what they were doing and had conviction in that...they would not care if they were detected or not.

 

Depends on the 'spirit creature' I would say. Are they supposed to be omnipotent or omnibenevolent as well? Look people, if you can't handle a topic like this without judging it all as stupid or unbelievable... then I guess you are just not the person who can handle this topic Keep a fucking open mind.

 

Good or bad...i have conviction always in what i do.....or say.... and do not give a shit who detects me...if spirits are not the same way, no, I guess they are not for me....never said i could not handle that...just wouldn't want to.
It would make me ill.

Why so angry?

 

Let's discuss different conceptions of God then.

Based on some of your responses, I'm going to assume you believe God possesses some form of sentience.

Where does the complexity necessary to have sentience and the ability for God to create the universe stem from?

 

I was not primarily talking about you, Moonglow. I get kind of pissed of because I see how people and certain beleifs gets stigmatized and treated. We don't have to agree with eachother but some people won't drop an argument and apparently have some expectation of it by either seeing their discussion partner with oppposite stance agreeing with them or trying to 'bring out their true (religious) colours'. It is ruining every thread about this topic. Wether it is about heaven (which could be about christian heaven, to nirvana, or walhalla) or God(s) etc. etc. it is always made about organized religion by atheists who will not stop after that but go on and convict, and project stuff onto theists and ridicule the general belief and the people having it. If someone wants to crack a ridiculing joke at their expense, that would be bearable and just fine, but they won't stop there, they will always go on until they have pushed them into a corner (of the debate) to get the feeling or affirmation that they were right. Kind of like the annoying kind of religious people do. Well, not kind of, they are doing the same thing... Hopeless.

 

To be detected or not ... these are spiritually equal conditions . Let the human ego be confidently likewise ? This
may be a more sophisticated expression than 'throw the self away' . A fullness of spiritual participation is quietly
appreciated , like making a cameo appearance in a lover's dream .

 

I was reacting to one comment that had my back up ever since it was said, is all...people can have whatever beliefs thye want to have.....who cares? I don't. I only object when they try to foist it on me, is all.....

 

Where does the universe stem from?

I am not sure about God being sentient like a human. If anything It is something 'supernatural', not bound to the laws (and perspectives of beings) in it. God can be benevolent, yet not be like a 'heavenly father'.

Frankly I also think we are being and thinking a little shortsighted when we say people who believe in a God who is not benevolent, and is out to sentence people in their afterlife f they do not live according to God's will (which to be clear I don't believe in AT ALL) are more excusable to get ridiculed and negativel judges as other theists. Sure they might act upon this belief in a way we can, will and (for our own wellbeing) must judge their actions. But to say this theistic concept is even more unworthy to ponder upon than a benevolent one is just because we do not like the idea of such a God (very logical btw) What if they neither do not like or prefer such a God, but they sincerely believe God is like that? Does the most likeable concept of God also have to be the most plausible one? Just thinking out loud here!

Me too. And this is what I see is being done by atheists at least as much. They are trying to force their beliefs on God (or lack thereof) on others they disagree with.


If we do not take any sides or stances we might get suprised by who appears to be openminded and who not (on certain matters).

 

We all live in the Mandelbrot. Each layer being unfathomable and unknowable to one another..yet, its all one piece . God is an individual's perception, offering nothing more than hypothesis and faith. It will take a lonnnnng time, if ever , to "proove" without shadow. There is also no hard proof there are aliens among us either. Untill that time presents itself, we rely on faith .

 

Edit..

 

I like it. I pity people who shit on faith. It's not like I have an abundance of it myself at all times, and I never claim to be certain or know things for sure when I talk about God. But I acknowledge that faith and spiritual beliefs (wether religious or completely individual, theistic or nontheistic) are priceless and awesome for the people who have it. I understand it is hard to take seriously (especially when it becomes specific) for others, but really, they don't have to make a problem of it on itself.

 

Faith is great...I just never had it blindly.....something has to prove itself to me before I have un questioned faith in it....

i rely on my pure, raw instincts...they have not failed me yet in long term...even though I may ignore them in short term, because i cannot believe what my instincts tell me at times, at first.....but I need to learn to listen to them right away.....
It is when I don't, that I get messed up.

 

We rely on relationalism . How far by your philosophy can you stretch forth thy arms , and
then what's to do about the unknowable and beyond . Or phrased in opposition - what is
excluded and denied ? A pre-determined exclusion might be considered immoral .

 

And conclusions in ouf belief systems, based upon our experiences, knowledge and perceptions.

 

When one has the proof of it it becomes knowledge. No faith is being applied then anymore because we would know it.

Just because people have faith, even blind faith, doesn't mean it is unquestioned at all. Neither should it be of course. Question everything.

I also rely on my instincts, but also on reason and logic. I admit this has caused me to think and discuss similar like mr. Writer, relaxxx, fierce flower etc. in the past, but then I realized I was the one with a problem about other people's faith and beliefs. When I grant them the same right I want to have and accept people can have opposite beliefs and thoughts as me I felt much more at peace and also gained more understanding (without agreeing with them necessarily, mind you)