Does the USA have a responsibility to help the Iraqis?

Wow, short and to the point.

 

Should the US spoon feed it's internal policies for ever?
Responsibility for and responsibility to are two separate issues - or maybe not.
What do you think?
What 'help' do you think the US 'help' should entail?

Think about it, then articulate what the positives and negatives might be.
What would they be?

Does 'help' mean that the US can just do what ever it feels will help Iraq (and its people)?

Where have I mentioned ‘100%’ positive effect ?

I am sure there are other points I failed to add a ? to.

Nope.

I don't think not answering what 'history books' I have or have not read are not answering questions asked here.

Well, even secondary means it is not entirely absent from their minds.

 

Odon

Not sure what you mean I think I asked for explanation and you didn’t give one.

Is that a question – if you are responsible for something happening to someone have you a responsibility to help? I think we’ve already been through that.

LOL - About what?

I’ve stated my position its not short term its long term and it begins with taking responsibility for mistakes and trying to work out why they were made.

the positives and negatives of what?

What would what be? You seem to be going cryptic.

Again - Can you please explain what your thinking here is – because I’m not sure where this has come from?

That was covered just above - You seem to now to be indicating that you think that the invasion and occupation of Iraq had a ‘100%’ positive effect and that to you no mistakes were made, can you clarify you position and explain your thinking.

I asked because of your statement about “the Iraq invasion was a 100% failure, and the only response is to grovel for forgiveness and ask for forgiveness”

You seemed to be saying that in your opinion there were no mistakes and so nothing to forgive that it was in your term ‘100%’ positive.

Now you say ‘Absolutely not’ so you are saying that there are things to forgive and if so shouldn’t forgiveness be sort?

As I’ve said I’m happy to reply if you ask them.

But looking at the above I seem to have covered them anyway its just that sometimes I’m not sure what you mean and ask for explanations, as I’ve said I can’t read minds.

*

What?

I think it rather important to know and understand the sources you are using to back up your thinking I’m always happy to recommend further reading.

I said secondary at most, but are you saying that its not a mistake to go somewhere to ‘liberate’ some people then once the country is ‘liberated’ it’s a good thing rather than a mistake to then pursue you interests rather than the interest of those you have liberated? Do you think they would not notice. Can you explain your think on that?

 

'Responsibility for and responsibility to are two separate issues - or maybe not.'

What do you think?

I think you vaguely mentioned 'sanctions' and 'removal of dictators'.
I suppose anything solid would highlight weakness in you argument.

US 'help'

'Does 'help' mean that the US can just do what ever it feels will help Iraq (and its people)?'

There is no need for me to do that.

I don't.

Like I said, absence of not talking about something does not mean I think the counter point is 100%

I don't get you. How do you remove a dictator?
I have no idea what 'interests' are being pursued.

 

Odon

So you are just refusing to debate preferring to sulk instead.

I mean you seem to have run out of any argument and you’re refusing to answer questions or give clarification of your often cryptic statements.

I answer questions and you ignore them, I reply to your inquiries and you sneer at them rather that giving a sensible reply, and if I ask a question you point blank refuse to answer while making a big boo hoo about me not answering your questions which when looked at turns out I already have answered.

I mean for example take this – I asked a question and then explained why (and offer help) I’d asked it when you refused to answer -I think it rather important to know and understand the sources you are using to back up your thinking I’m always happy to recommend further reading.

And what do you reply – “I don't.”

What is the conclusion – well I can only surmise that you actually lied when you said you had read some books on the history of the countries I mentioned (Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Vietnam etc)

That you are not arguing from an informed position but from a purely ideological one which doesn’t allow you to debate in any objective way.

Oh I’m sure you'll throw that at me and sneer ‘no that's you that is’ or some such thing but I think your last post speaks for itself.

Now are you willing to debate sensibly or do we have to suffer more of the same?

 

Balbus

Do you think you have answered these questions/points?:

What 'help' do you think the US 'help' should entail?

The only thing I can find is:

'As I’ve explained to me this is about taking responsibility and the first thing that needs to be done is to accept responsibility for the mistakes that have been made Only then can people honestly look for the reasons as to why the mistakes were made.'

Like I said:
I'm not 100% sure you have really said where you are on this.
Are you saying that the US has an on-going [and never ending] responsibility to help [because the US is responsible for the situation in Iraq]?

You have to consider, for instance, the positives and negatives of any 'help' the US might provide.
Would it have unforeseen consequences?

Given we are talking about 'help' wouldn't it be a good idea to say what 'help'?
Financial? Military? Diplomatic Etc Etc Etc.

The simple answer is: I don't.
The long winded version is:
I don't think it is necessary to footnote every utterance.
Although, I have posted several articles and specifics (rather than my opinion) that anybody can look up for themselves.

Did I claim to have read any history books?

I've probably read this book or that book over the years.
I generally don't read 'history' books.
Given I'm living within (or have lived within) the history we are talking about I find it more helpful to absorb what is going on around me - what ever and where ever.
I've probably read a little too much here: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/
I've read: Chambers Dictionary of World History
The total information I absorb I wouldn't be able to catalogue.
I don't think it is: 'important to know and understand the sources you are using'.
What purpose does it serve?
I only would ask for citations if you are saying something that you think is factual - such as post 286.

 

But does a secret ballot, and the right to privacy in one's vote, mean no responsibility by it?:smilielol5:

 

Odon

To repeat I don’t think the US can help until it accepts responsibility for the mistakes that have been made Only then can people honestly look for the reasons as to why the mistakes were made.'

It could then go on to see what action might be best.

Me - Post 293 - Have you read any of the history of these countries?
You - post 295 - Yes I have.

Did you mean you’d read the Chambers Dictionary of World History?

You don’t think its worth doing research or learning about things so that you can make an informed decision about them?

I mean as I’ve pointed out you seem to know very little about the histories of the countries we’ve discussed meaning you seem lacking in the understanding of them. So you jump on me for saying things then have to back track or bluster because it becomes clear you know very little about it. And worse you don’t seem to want to learn.

 

That's the only reference I could find, too.
Lets imagine this is not a major cop-out.
Lets imagine the US has accepted your - no doubt - lengthy list of mistakes.
What 'help' are you talking about?
Has this not crossed your mind?

This is about what you think, not them, isn't it?
What happens if their conclusion is 'no action'? (lets ignore reality for a minute or two)

I was a being a little 'huffy' as you put it.
I wasn't talking about 'books' in particular.
I couldn't tell you specific books I have read - that doesn't mean I haven't read anything.

Personal research is not the same thing as sharing what you have read, specifically.
You: I think it rather important to know and understand the sources you are using to back up your thinking

If you want me to nit-pick. You say this is important to you, yet you didn't provide source material for post 286, did you (did I miss it)?

 

odon

This is the problem – not taking responsibility

No its about responsibility.

Please clarify?

You seem to be carrying on being ‘huffy’ judging from you last few posts.

I was which is clear from what I say, you said yes now you seem to be saying no

What you read them then forgot them? I mean if you can’t remember what they were how can you remember what they said.

What?

LOL well nit-picking is all you seem to have at the moment, you clearly don’t have an argument.

Oh you really are huffy – I said - Have you read any of the history of these countries? I could recommend you a number of general history books if you wish?

Thing is that it part of public record, it is there in the history, you just need to study it.

If you want me to recommend some I will but you could just pick some general history books and its simply there BUT i don’t think you will read them and that’s the problem you prefer your ignorance otherwise you would have read them already the first time I suggested it rather than lie about having read such history books, when you hadn't.

 

Balbus

You said: 'I think it rather important to know and understand the sources you are using to back up your thinking'
And I said I don't think it is important to footnote every utterance.
You haven't done that yourself.
Just because I do not mention the source, and most people including yourself don't either, that doesn't mean I, for instance, am not reading anything/researching anything.

The books are not in my personal library.
I probably could count on one hand the amount of BOOKS I have read on 'Iraq', for instance.
That isn't where I get my information (etc) from.
For me, it's a little like asking me to recollect my Internet history for the last decade.
Not going to happen.

So are you saying it's up to the US what help they feel is appropriate and you have no thoughts on the type of help you feel is appropriate (taking into account possible the positive and negative outcomes)?

So, basically, the US should take responsibility for mistakes (I didn't bother to post where they have) and then decide what help they feel necessary?
Again, you don't have any thoughts on what the help should be?
Fair enough.
Ok, I guess conversation over.

 

odon

Oh please, one does not mean the other and I’ve not said so or even implied so.

You said you had read some books on the history of these counties I simply asked what they were because it might help me in general terms to understand the things you seem unwilling to discuss.

I don’t mention my sources for everything but sometimes I do and I suggest reading and often link to articles I agree with and/or complement my thinking.

For example Imperial life in the Emerald City by Rajiv Chandrasekaran)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Baghdads/dp/0747592896"]Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Baghdad's Green Zone: Amazon.co.uk: Rajiv Chandrasekaran: Books

Not all the books are in my personal library but I recall most of the ones that I don’t have, I read far more novels but I remember most of them.

Also a lot of journalists these days have blogs or websites with their articles on them such as George Monbiot (http://www.monbiot.com/)
And other journalists re-publish their pieces in book form like the excellent

Robert Fisk, who’s The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East i’d recommend people to read.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Great-War-Civilisation-Conquest/dp/1841150088"]The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East: Amazon.co.uk: Robert Fisk: Books



And as I’ve said I often cite articles and give links to them in my posts - and because I know what I’ve posted I can usually find them again (sometimes re-reading them to see if I still agree or not)

Finally Google search is your friend – I can usually find things there that I can only vaguely remember bits of.

Now is there any possibility of you been able to tell me which books on Iraq you did read (other than Tony Blair) or any articles or journalist you liked?

 

Odon

To repeat - I don’t think the US can help until it accept responsibility for the mistakes that have been made Only then can people honestly look for the reasons as to why the mistakes were made.

So why don’t we bother to look at those mistakes you think were made.

We could then look at by the mistakes were made and then we might try and work out from that what long term strategy might help the Middle East.

If you want to stop that’s fine but I’m happy to carry on.

 

Balbus

I understood what you said.

I don't think, at this point, looking backwards will help with the current situation.

If you are talking about looking backwards - they already have:

http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/pub752.pdf

(One of dozens of documents, I imagine)

Well, not with regards to the immediate situation - ISIS.

I thought the whole premise was that Iraq asked for US help NOW.

Not discussing the entire Middle East etc etc.

Obama already has a strategy (for Iraq).

So maybe it is better to talk about that strategy.

Well, it took a while for you to get to your point.
And even then you want us (not just you) to spend some more time pontificating.

Where the outcome of that might be: Well, it's probably best if the US pulls out of the Middle East and doesn't stick it's nose back in.

If you can get to the point more quickly - such as dispensing with the history of Iraq for the last 250 years etc, and determine a more specific question, then it might be worth continuing.

I've read The World of Robert Fisk (volume 2: 1999-2008)

I read a lot of George Monbiot (mainly regarding the environment, though)

And I used to be an avid reader of the Guardian, so I've read a lot of G2 articles, and have the majority of them (dated 2006-2012) stored away like a secret hoarder. See below.
So, also, all of their contributors.

I swing more towards David Aaronovitch these days.

All the ones you mention are more opinion, though, aren't they - rather than historical 'facts' ?

Me too.

 

Again odon you seem to want to be huffy rather than debate.

One moment you say I took awhile to get to my point the next you seem to imply I got to it awhile ago and seem to bemoan me for repeating it.

But ok – you think I’ve make my point – can you tell me what you think it is so we can be on the same page?

But why do you think that - why have you come to that conclusion? My point is that the US has a history of making mistakes in the Middle East and that maybe it would be better if those mistakes were examined to try and lessen any future mistakes.

OK. Can you explain what you think it is and if you think it is to some degree or other good or bad and why you think that?

Given that the US made the mistakes that have brought about the present situation isn’t there a responsibility to try and improve the situation or are you saying you think doing nothing would help and if so why?

What is ‘fact’ in history? You might have a date for a battle a ‘fact’ - but the whys and wherefores about it, its result and significance or consequences ete etc etc can be in dispute.

Are you claiming that Imperial life in the Emerald City by Rajiv Chandrasekaranis made up? I mean have you read it?
[FONT=&quot]http://www.amazon.co.uk/Imperial-Life-Emerald-City-Baghdads/dp/0747592896"]Imperial Life in the Emerald City: Inside Baghdad's Green Zone: Amazon.co.uk: Rajiv Chandrasekaran: Books[/FONT]

 

Balbus

I think it took well over 10 days for you to mention wanting the US to retread their mistakes and then see what they think they should do moving forward.

Again, I presumed you were talking about 'help' right now.

It is not a given ( US made the mistakes that have brought about the present situation).
I already explained about what responsibility I feel they have (or don't).
This is what I am talking about, dragging it out to the point of banality.

I thought the point was: Iraq asks for help regarding ISIS.
That is what I am referring to.
You would think it's a fairly straightforward point.
If you are talking about something else, then please either ask a direct question or start another thread.

No. Not entirely.

It's an opinion.

I've watched 'Green Zone' does that count?

You might as well watch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49A3zS3no0"]The Green Berets Theatrical Movie Trailer (1968) - YouTube

...for impartiality.

 

The Odon and Balbuster thread

 

:juggle:

 

I still do not think this is at all that US's problem or the US has to do something or help SPECIFICALLY... however the more I have learned about this situation and ISIS the more I think it could def be very, very bad if someone doesn't do something. But I don't know if there is a good solution. I don't know if working with Iran and the other side (the Shi'ites) is really any better in the long run. I don't know that there is a good option but I now think this is more troubling than I thought before.

 

i think that the world has a responsibility to do something. unfortunately the world will not because the issue is too complex. i don't think the us should act on it, but i can understand why they will.