Don´t remain tied, Darwin has lied

Blackguard...

Occam knows not...he extrapolates.
If it were up to him we would use orbital microwve arrays.
Beaming all the power we need from orbit..

It is an example....
It may not be fusion that supplies modern society in the decades to come...
It will most likely be a cluster of technologies. As it is now...
[solar coal/oil. fission]

But ,,, who decides what we will use?
Not the guys that make them..

Occam

 

Allah(may he be exalted) is above the heavens, above his creation and his throne which means that he is not everywhere as some people claim or that he is everything but ofcourse with his knowledge and with his vison and hearing he reaches everywhere. The odd thing [for me] to understand is how christians can accept this fact yet claim that the lord of the worlds, my God and their God fertilized a woman such as if he was an animal of some kind, exalted is he above what these people say!

"O people of the Scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allaah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Eesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allaah and His Word, (“Be!” — and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Rooh) created by Him; so believe in Allaah and His Messengers. Say not: ‘Three (trinity)!’ Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allaah is (the only) One Ilaah (God), glory is to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allaah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. [al-Nisa’ 4:171]

The true martyrs will be given the reward they deserved, these people didn´t just believe while doing good deeds put furthermore laid down their own life for the sake of Allah(may he be exalted) and thus proved that faith wasn´t something which was just on their tongue. The reward for the martyrs are known but what people have difficulties to understand is who the martyrs are? Is a martyr one who bombs him self up in a bus full with Israeli children or in a market even though Allah(may he be exalted) has forbidden corruption? Then what about a man which is living under the most horrorfying circumstances, under opression, humality and poverty who decided to fight these enemy soldiers for the sake of his lord, is this man a terrorist, according to alot of magazines and newspapers here in Sweden and the rest of Western countries he is which I found very strange, appearently one who defends his children and his fellow brothers lifes is a terrorist while the one who goes to another country killing and blowing up houses in a country which he has nothing to do with is a hero? I hoped I answered your questions.

Because of pity. ​

Say. Surely my prayer and my sacrifice and my life and my death are (all) for Allah, the Lord of the worlds; [An`aam 6.162]

Do you think when I'm harrased or mocked at school for my islamic clothing or for any other reason that I ignore them because of reason or because of the statement of my lord(interpretation of the meaning):
O you who believe! seek assistance through patience and prayer; surely Allah is with the patient. [Baqarah 2.153]

Surely I have rewarded them this day because they were patient, that they are the achievers. [Mu´minoon 23.111]

Do you think that it is beacause of reason in which I clean the house with a vaccum-cleaner, go shopping for groceries and wash the dishes and is it because of reason in which I hate to see my parents lift their finger when I'm alive , perfectly healthy or to ever say something bad to them, or could it be because Allah(may he be exatled) has said(interpretation of the meaning):

“And We have enjoined on man to be dutiful and kind to his parents. His mother bears him with hardship. And she brings him forth with hardship…” [al-Ahqaaf 46:15]

“…give thanks to Me and to your parents…” [Luqmaan 31:14];

“And your Lord has decreed that you worship none but Him. And that you be dutiful to your parents. If one of them or both of them attain old age in your life, say not to them a word of disrespect, nor shout at them but address them in terms of honour. And lower unto them the wing of submission and humility through mercy, and say: ‘My Lord! Bestow on them Your Mercy as they did bring me up when I was young’” [al-Israa’ 17:23]

Do you think I declined from accepting a "generous" offer and forming an illict relationship with a charming girl(I know, its very odd that any girl would like me) in my former school because of reason or because Allah(may he be exalted) has said in the quran(interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan). And whosoever follows the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan), then, verily, he commands Al Fahshaa’ [i.e. to commit indecency (illegal sexual intercourse)], and Al Munkar [disbelief and polytheism (i.e. to do evil and wicked deeds; and to speak or to do what is forbidden in Islam)[Noor 24.21]​

Do you think the reason for which I give away pretty much every coin I recieve is because of reason or because I've seen hungry poor children with my own eyes and giving to these is showing gratefullness to the one who provided me? Things I say and things I do is often because I love my lord not because of logic. Before I was a practising muslim my personality and my morals were completly different, religion wasn exacly the first thing which I liked to discuss, I was truly living in a mirage chasing my lusts thinking it would quench my thirst and Finally Allah(may he be exalted) says(interpretation of the meaning):​

It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing. [Baqarah 2.177]​

Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Imraan 3.31]​

 

Can a man ever stop God's plan from unfolding?
Would a (wise) man who respected God want too?
The words that you write are caused by God, as well as the words in the koran. They just have differing levels of exposure, due to the fact that they are required by different people.

 

I thank you for your honesty, and for your kindness. I admire many Muslims, and followers of many faiths, yet I cannot in good conscience join one particular one. My relationship with Spirit is personal, and that is okay by me.

 

1. Yes, nothing is impossible.
2. I cannot say, since although I pray "Thy will be done", I sometimes want my will to be done, and I am not as wise as I hope to be.
3. I tend to agree. What I feel is that we see Spirit in our own way, and whatever way that is, that is how Spirit sees us.

 

'can a man stop God's plan from unfolding?'

When you are part of God's plan, all of your actions are part of the plan as well.

When someone prays this way, it is necessary for it to happen. When you have your own desire that goes against what is given to you, it is necessary for you to have this desire to mold your understanding.

God knows the way that individuals view God and brings us what we need to add to our understanding of God.

 

1. lol, so it was a trick question.... got me.
2. My desires are mostly selfish.
3. yep

 

I'd say that the root of desire is self. How can something want something without having a concept of self gaining something?

What if something constantly lets you hurt it in order to give you pleasure, and you finally realise your pleasure causes the other pain (although you tried to ignore it for a long time). What do you do then?

I would call any response to the painful knowledge (guilt) that your pleasure has depended upon anothers pain a selfish response. If you can ignore the pain, you keep going. If the guilt motivates you to stop (because the pleasure gained is not worth the painful knowledge that you are inflicting pain on another), you stop. Either way, it is a selfish action.

To have the greatest pleasure you must not inflict unnecessary pain upon your self and others. You must learn to pick and choose, and how to throw the blade.

 

Desire is the reason for all things
Reason allows desire to have them.

Occam

 

Darwin has been scientifically proven wrong in some areas. Evolution did and still does occur though.

Hey guys, do you know what would help your arguments? Proofread your text for errors. Errors in text will make the writer sound like an idiot. I believe you learned this in 5th grade.

 

If it still does, then where is it?

 

You would have to be a complete moron to not understand that it takes place over millions of years.

 

I hope I dont sound like a moron, but if so, so be it.
Einstein has also been proven wrong, but could not have been if he had not first gotten us as far as he did. That is how science works. I learned that all by myself, outside of school.
If Darwin was proven wrong that proves he was proven wrong, and that is all. You cannot throw all his research out cuz of it. I don't know what points were found to be in error, but I'll bet that most of his work still stands.

I mentioned in another post that all life on earth shares a common protein, which does seem to point to a common source.

Also, periodic cataclysms that kill off numerous species speed up the process, and add a chaos factor to evolution, that is hard to measure.

If God created the world, it appears it was done methodically, and then let go to run its course. I believe that creation vs. evolution is an unnecessary quarrel, they can both be right.

 

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I didn't mean that we should toss the guy's work out the window, I just meant that Darwin was wrong about one of his theories which has since been corrected. He was, however, correct in stating that natural selection is a speedier form of evolution. Example: animals not tall enough to get to the food will die off while the taller ones reproduce and help the species become taller. Also, if two groups of the same species have different niches, they can form different species over time. This is why we have so many different kinds of birds/snakes/people/whatever. There are more but again--I am lazy this week.


And I suppose that evolutionists and creationists can both be 'right'.. maybe if and when the scientists prove something spectacular, the fundamentalist religions say "Oh yeah... uh.. god did that! It's in the bible! Look!" *writes it into the bible*. Otherwise, the assumption that the bible is god's word is totally blown. Well, it's not god's word in the first place. It is just a collection of stories based loosely on <insert miracle here>.

 

All over. New species of bird and insect are identified every year, not only because they were unfound, but because new species emerge on a regular basis as two populations sever ties and begin adapting to their specific environments.

Also, the reason the cold and flu haven't been eradicated by modern medicine is that they adapt to anything we throw at them and the species that attack us this year will be different than the ones that attacked us last year. Scientist force evolution in laboratory all the time (like in fruit flies) to study how the process works.

Well at least tens of thousands of years. Mans oldest known ancestors are less than 7 million years old, but we have evolved through number of species:
Sahelanthropus tchadensis (6-7 million)
Orrorin tugenensis(6-7 million)
Ardipithecus ramidus(5 million)
Australopithecus anamensis(4.5 Million)
Australopithecus afarensis(4 Million)
Kenyanthropus platyops(3.5 Million)
Australopithecus africanus(3 Million)
Australopithecus garhi(2.5 Million)
Australopithecus aethiopicus (2.5 Million)
Australopithecus boisei (2.5 Million)
Australopithecus robustus (2 Million)
Homo habilis (2.5 Million)
Homo georgicus (2 Million)
Homo erectus (1.8 Million)
Homo ergaster (1.9 Million)
Homo antecessor (.8 Million)
Homo heidelbergensis (.5 Million)
Homo sapiens neanderthalensis (.3 million)
Homo sapiens sapiens (.2 Million)

 

If I said that I´ve been to space would you believe me? Most of you probably doubt such a thing but you wouldn´t be able to prove my statement wrong, I just might of snuck in to one of those spaceships...
My point is, you have no evidence to support all this you have written, how do you know that the new species that are being found are not such that already existed sence there are thousands and thousands of animals that are yet to be discovered? Interesting(amusing) family tree you have painted out, most of them are apes the rest are humans- there are no middle ones. Not only parts of Darwins theory is incorrect but the most important part of his theory is incorrect, he assumed that the cell was something small pathetic little thing that probably could form by it self and that is what [almost what]his whole theory was established on, the cell was for him nothing but a black box as M.Behe writes in his book Darwin´s black box. A black box is a thing that works but we don´t really think or know how, like the computer which you are no using, it does a whole lot without we thinking about it. I want you to have little patient for what you are about to read, this is little biochemistry about blood congealing and how it works. I do not want you to read it all but just look through it and then tell me how and if this could ever be formed by "small stepts"- taken from Behe´s book Darwin´s Black Box, he starts with comparing the blood congealing "machine" with a Rube Goldberg machine:
My point is, you have no evidence to support all this you have written, how do you know that the new species that are being found are not such that already existed sence there are thousands and thousands of animals that are yet to be discovered? Interesting(amusing) family tree you have painted out, most of them are apes the rest are humans- there are no middle ones. Not only parts of Darwins theory is incorrect but the most important part of his theory is incorrect, he assumed that the cell was something small pathetic little thing that probably could form by it self and that is what [almost what]his whole theory was established on, the cell was for him nothing but a black box as M.Behe writes in his book Darwin´s black box. A black box is a thing that works but we don´t really think or know how, like the computer which you are no using, it does a whole lot without we thinking about it. I want you to have little patient for what you are about to read, you do not need to read it all but just look it through and tell me if it could and how it could be formed by it self, gradually(from Darwin´s Black Box:

When you think about it for a moment, you realize that the Rube Goldberg machine is irreducibly complex. It is a single system composed of several interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, and where the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to cease functioning. Unlike the examples of irreducible complexity discussed earlier, the cartoon system is not a single piece where the components simultaneously exert force against each other. Rather, it is composed of separate pieces each acting in turn, one after the other, to accomplish its function. Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, p 76, pub by The Free Press a division of Simon and Schuster, 1996"About 2 to 3 percent of the protein in blood plasma (the part that's left after the red blood cells are removed) consists of a protein complex called fibrinogen. The name fibrinogen is easy to remember because the protein makes "fibers" that form the clot. Yet fibrinogen is only the potential clot material. Like the telephone pole before it is felled in the story about Foghorn Leghorn, fibrinogen is a weapon waiting to be unleashed. Almost all of the other proteins involved in blood clotting control the timing and placement of the clot. This too is similar to our cartoon example: all components except the telephone pole were required to control the pole's fall.
Fibrinogen is a composite of six protein chains, containing twin pairs of three different proteins. Electron microscopy has shown that fibrinogen is a rod-shaped molecule, with two round bumps on each end of the rod and a single round bump in the middle. So fibrinogen resembles a set of barbells with an extra set of weights in the middle of the bar.
Normally fibrinogen is dissolved in plasma, like salt is dissolved in ocean water. It floats around, peacefully minding its own business, until a cut or injury causes bleeding. Then another protein, called thrombin, slices off several small pieces from two of the three pairs of protein chains in fibrinogen. The trimmed protein--now called fibrin--has sticky patches exposed on its surface that had been covered by the pieces that were cut off. The sticky patches are precisely complementary to portions of other fibrin molecules. The complementary shapes allow large numbers of fibrins to aggregate with each other. Fibrins do not stick together randomly. Because of the shape of the fibrin molecule, long threads form, cross over each other, and (much as a fisherman's net traps fish) make a pretty protein meshwork that entraps blood cells. This is the initial clot. The meshwork covers a large area with a minimum of protein; if it simply formed a lump, much more protein would be required to clog up an area.

Thrombin, which cuts off the pieces from fibrinogen, is like the circular saw from the Foghorn Leghorn cartoon. Like the saw, thrombin sets in motion the final step of a controlled process. But what if the circular saw ran continuously, without needing the other steps to turn it on? In that case the saw would immediately cut the rope holding up the telephone pole, well before Foghorn moseyed into the vicinity. Similarly, if the only proteins involved in blood coagulation were thrombin and fibrinogen, the process would be uncontrolled. Thrombin would quickly clip all of the fibrinogen to make fibrin; a massive clot would form throughout the animal's circulatory system, solidifying it. Unlike cartoon characters, real animals would rapidly perish. To avoid such an unhappy ending an organism must control the activity of thrombin.

The body commonly stores enzymes (proteins that catalyze a chemical reaction, like the cleavage of fibrinogen) in an inactive form for later use. The inactive forms are called proenzymes. When a signal is received that a certain enzyme is needed, the corresponding proenzyme is activated to give the mature enzyme. As with the conversion of fibrinogen to fibrin, proenzymes are often activated by cutting off a piece of the proenzyme that is blocking a critical area. The strategy is commonly used with digestive enzymes. Large quantities can be stored as inactive proenzymes, then quickly activated when the next good meal comes along.
Thrombin initially exists as the inactive form, prothrombin. Because it is inactive, prothrombin can't cleave fibrinogen, and the animal is saved from death by massive, inappropriate clotting. Still, the dilemma of control remains. If the cartoon saw were inactivated, the telephone pole would not fall at the wrong time. If nothing switches on the saw, however, then it would never cut the rope; the pole wouldn't fall even at the right time. If fibrinogen and prothrombin were the only proteins in the blood-clotting pathway, again our animal would be in bad shape. When the animal was cut, prothrombin would just float helplessly by the fibrinogen as the animal bled to death. Because prothrombin cannot cleave fibrinogen to fibrin, something is needed to activate prothrombin. Perhaps the reader can see why the blood-clotting system is called a cascade--a system where one component activates another component, which activates a third component, and so on.
A protein called Stuart factor cleaves prothrombin, turning it into active thrombin that can then cleave fibrinogen to fibrin to form the blood clot. Unfortunately, as you may have guessed, if Stuart factor, prothrombin, and fibrinogen were the only blood-clotting proteins, then Stuart factor would rapidly trigger the cascade, congealing all the blood of the organism. So Stuart factor also exists in an inactive form that must first be activated.
At this point there's a little twist to our developing chicken-and-egg scenario. Even activated Stuart factor can't turn on prothrombin. Stuart factor and prothrombin can be mixed in a test tube for longer than it would take a large animal to bleed to death without any noticeable production of thrombin. It turns out that another protein, called accelerin, is needed to increase the activity of Stuart factor. The dynamic duo--accelerin and activated Stuart factor--cleave prothrombin fast enough to do the bleeding animal some good. So in this step we need two separate proteins to activate one proenzyme.
Yes, accelerin also initially exists in an inactive form, called proaccelerin (sigh). And what activates it? Thrombin! But thrombin, as we have seen, is further down the regulatory cascade than proaccelerin. So thrombin regulating the production of accelerin is like having the granddaughter regulate production of the grandmother. Nonetheless, due to a very low rate of cleavage of prothrombin by Stuart factor, it seems there is always a trace of thrombin in the bloodstream. Blood clotting is therefore auto-catalytic, because proteins in the cascade accelerate the production of more of the same proteins.
We need to back up a little at this point because, as it turns out, prothrombin as it is initially made by the cell can't be transformed into thrombin, even in the presence of activated Stuart factor and accelerin. Prothrombin must first be modified by having ten specific amino acid residues, called glutamate (Glu) residues, changed to y-carboxyglutamate (Gla) residues. The modification can be compared to placing a lower jaw onto the upper jaw of a skull. The completed structure can bite and hang on to the bitten object; without the lower jaw, the skull couldn't hang on. In the case of prothrombin, Gla residues "bite" (or bind) calcium, allowing prothrombin to stick to the surfaces of cells. Only the intact, modified calcium-prothrombin complex, bound to a cell membrane, can be cleaved by activated Stuart factor and accelerin to give thrombin.
The modification of prothrombin does not happen by accident. Like virtually all biochemical reactions, it requires catalysis by a specific enzyme. In addition to the enzyme, however, the conversion of Glu to Gla needs another component: vitamin K. Vitamin K is not a protein; rather, it is a small molecule. Like a gun that needs bullets, the enzyme that changes Glu to Gla needs vitamin K to work. One type of rat poison is based on the role that vitamin K plays in blood coagulation. The synthetic poison, called "warfarin" (for the Wisconsin Alumni Research Fund, which receives a cut of the profits from its sale), was made to look like vitamin K to the enzyme that uses it. In the presence of warfarin the enzyme is unable to modify prothrombin. When rats eat food poisoned with warfarin, prothrombin is neither modified nor cleaved, and the poisoned animals bleed to death.
But it still seems we haven't made much progress--now we have to go back and ask what activates Stuart factor. It turns out that it can be activated by two different routes, called the intrinsic and the extrinsic pathways. In the intrinsic pathway, all the proteins required for clotting are contained in the blood plasma; in the extrinsic pathway, some clotting proteins occur on cells. Let's first examine the intrinsic pathway.
When an animal is cut, a protein called Hageman factor sticks to the surface of cells near the wound. Bound Hageman factor is then cleaved by a protein called HMK to yield activated Hageman factor. Immediately the activated Hageman factor converts another protein, called prekallikrein, to its active form, kallikrein. Kallikrein helps HMK speed up the conversion of more Hageman factor to its active form. Activated Hageman factor and HMK then together transform another protein, called PTA, to its active form. Activated PTA in turn, together with the activated form of another protein (discussed below) called convertin, switch a protein called Christmas factor to its active form. Finally, activated Christmas factor, together with antihemophilic factor (which is itself activated by thrombin in a manner similar to that of proaccelerin) changes Stuart factor to its active form.
Like the intrinsic pathway, the extrinsic pathway is also a cascade. The extrinsic pathway begins when a protein called proconvertin is turned into convertin by activated Hageman factor and thrombin. In the presence of another protein, tissue factor, convertin changes Stuart factor to its active form. Tissue factor, however, only appears on the outside of cells that are usually not in contact with blood. Therefore, only when an injury brings tissue into contact with blood will the extrinsic pathway be initiated. (A cut plays a role similar to that of Foghorn Leghorn picking up the dollar. It is the initiating event--something outside of the cascade mechanism itself.)
The intrinsic and extrinsic pathways cross over at several points. Hageman factor, activated by the intrinsic pathway, can switch on proconvertin of the extrinsic pathway. Convertin can then feed back into the intrinsic pathway to help activated PTA activate Christmas factor. Thrombin itself can trigger both branches of the clotting cascade by activating antihemophilic factor, which is required to help activated Christmas factor in the conversion of Stuart factor to its active form, and also by activating proconvertin.

Slogging through a description of the blood-clotting system makes a fellow yearn for the simplicity of a cartoon Rube Goldberg machine."

This is only one small system, then think about all other systems in the universe! IT COULD NOT, I SAID NOT BE FORMED BY CHANCE!
Everything in the universe is in such a perfect balance, if the rate of oxygen, hydrogyn or some other gases would be smaller/larger it would be harder to live here in earth, think about it- the formation of the planets the distance to the sun- everything in such perfect balance.

 

Kharakov

How can a wise man have found wisdom if it was all part of a plan?
He 'finds' nothing.
He is PART OF THE MACHINE..That is gods plan..DECEPTION.
He can do nothing but what he does..
He has no choice..no freedom..
His very life is as a pawn in a game.
WISDOM MEANS CHOICE..One is wise if he can predict possible outcomes and act on them..
There ARE NO POSSIBLE OUTCOMES if all is the plan of your god.
There is only ONE..

This is pure DETERMINISM.
The antithesis of conscious self aware understanding.
Of logic and reason...
Of Love.

A Deterministic philosophy . Sits in occams mind as just about as valid as solipsism.
Determinism says
That a self aware mind has as much choice as a rock.

Is that you?

Occam

Occam suggests that if it GOD TOLD US ..all happens and it can happen no other way..but by his plan
Humanity would go insane.

Occording to plan?

 

Cabdirazzaq

Occam has asked this before..and you ignoed it...no mater

Where did SARS come from..?
Where did resistant TB come from?
Evolution can only be seen in action on our time scales in such fast reproducing life.

IT IS SEEN...Humans die of a TB that did not exist before we changed its enviroment.

All is life...it came from somewhere....that somewhere is its predecessors.
Evolution.

---------------
Also
We can MAKE NEW SPECIES.

Would you like a species of fly designed..without wings?
[Its no longer a 'FLY'..hehe]
Or that can only see in infra-red?

Pay enough cash..and it is yours...

You suggest god made it all,,,
But if we can make species...that is false.

You seem to have little idea of what we are able to do.
Or will soon be able to do..

Within 100 years,, nothing in the scale of life..
Humans will be able to create self aware consciousness.

NOW..is the time for you to say..
"but it would have no soul"

Occam

 

Occam does not say it was...
He suggests that evolution follows laws...as it does...
And those laws are a product of direction

You say that direction is the god of your Quran..

Where is the evidence for THIS?

No-where occam can see...
Or apparently , the science you freely quote.
Science sees some of the fantastic detail...
BUT MAKES NO JUDGEMENT ON WHY THEY CAME TO BE...

Science is about processes and laws...
Not about WHY.

WHY..is pure philosophy...
Science knows not WHY there is gravity or evolution...
It exists only to find them.

YOU exist to find out why
And you gave it all up to accept a prepacked religion.
A prepacked way of thinking...


Occam