Eastern Gate: An Atheist's Worst Nightmare

Kharakov, I'm not looking for a sign I am looking for the truth that should be found in any Book that was truly authored by God. The Bible has proof in it's prophecies. All of the other religious text have no proof, so from where I'm standing, I have the real McCoy. If you can show me some other religious books that speak with the accuracy and the prophecies that are found in the Bible, I would be interested. But to date, I have found no such Book.

 

God created the literal light, and the literal darkness. He also created human beings, and it is the human beings, that tell lies. It is you who have convereted literal light, in to a verbal lie, not me. Your the one making the changes here.

 

Well I don't recall ever saying the Earth was 6,000 years old. So before you start talking about my concepts, I would suggest you get your facts right.

 

1. The Bible has withstood the test of time, and it's older than Joe. And the prophecies of the Bible are true, as can be observed. The Jews have returned to Israel, and they have retaken South Israel first just as the Bible stated they would, (1948), and they retook Jerusalem second, as the Bible said they would (1967).

2. If you take the Bible and it prophecies literally, there are few directions one can move. And that is why most people who do not want to believe the Bible,
don't want to read it literally.

3. Just the prophecies of Christ found in the Old Testement number about three hundred. It might be possible for chance to explain His fulfilling a few, but fulfilling all three hundred. GET REAL.

4. You don't see how a prophecy that has not come true supports my point? Well first the prophecy talks about the Jews returning from all over the world back to the land of Israel. This has already come true, Second it states that they would retake South Israel first, they did. Then the prophecy states they would take Jerusalem second. This also happened as the Bible stated. And as you read the other prophecies, it talks about the Sealed East Gate, the Gate is there, and it is sealed as the prophecy stated. The prophecy then states that Israel will nolonger be a divided nation, and it states it would have one leader over the nation, and not two like in the past. This has also come to pass. The prophecy states that the ancient places and cities would be rebuilt again. This has happened as well. If you can't see this fulfillment, then your not paying attention. I might point out that Christian ministers from the 1600s throught the 1800s were telling people that before Christ returns, the Bible clearly states that the Jews will first have to return to Israel and retake Jerusalem. They understood this, because they took the Bible literally.

5. Many of the prophecies cannot be understood without both Books present. Old and New Testaments. For you only have half the story in the Old Testament and the other half of the story is in the New Testament. When you put the Book together, then you see the story line. This is especially true with the prophecies that involve America.

6. The Orthdox Jews still believe in the prophecies, where as the more liberal Jewish theologians donot.

7. Your ferraris example is to simplistic. There is a whole story being played out before our eyes, and the world is the stage. The Bible is the program which reveals the events that are about to unfold, but few are listening.

 

How about supplying some specific passages to back that up.

If you take the bible literally the whole east gate prophecy theory falls apart (already demonstrated this).

The question is whether or not he actually fullfilled the prophecies, not what the odds agaisnt it happening by chance would be.

None of this is propheciesed in Ezk.38, which is the chapter you told me to read (changing the subject again?).

I've already addressed the whole gate issue, and we're not debating whether or not the bible should be taken literally, we're debating whether or not it's appropriate to select bits and peices of a prophecy and reject the rest if the rest contradicts you're interpretation.

How about giving us an example to illustrate your point?

My question was: I'm familiar with the practice by modern christians of selecting certain portions of a text and ignoring the rest in order to validate their interpretation of prophecy. You've stated that ancient Jewish scholars did the same thing. Can you show that this is true?

Looks like you missed my point.

 

no problem, get some sleep.

 

Campbell,

It appears to me that the Truth is so regardless of what I think or say; however, the universe appears to include what I think and say. I am learning; if there is a judgement made about the nature of my existence, the nature of my character, and I am thus driven, then I ask to let those truths be revealed. I have found that my expectations have lead me into responding to judgements similar to that aforementioned and that by asking, by seeking, with sincerity of heart that the truth is often revealed; there are times, however, where greater faith is required when answers are not, at least immediately, provided.

I do not intend to discount or prejudge the statements that you are making in these threads; however, I do not entirely understand your expressions either. It may be the case that part of what is occuring in these threads are misunderstandings because of the use of different systems of communication and understanding. If you recall my island analogy, I asked the question; "If some people live on an isolated island and they have developed an understanding of the world, and of heaven, that are equivalent to that expressed or relayed by you but in a different langauge and with no books but they believe in what Jesus taught; would this make them condemed to hellfire?" Could it be that there are good and just people of many different religious and philosophical origins, that we are all learning, and that even those who have accepted Christ into their hearts are fallible and have lessons to learn about life ?

As I read your words I say to myself that this man, Campbell, who I have developed sincere respect for, may very well be correct in some, or all, of the prophecy that he relays; and, I also say to myself, that I will not be coerced by fear or by any other means into accepting that that is not truly revealed to me. Your words stoke, for me, a feeling, in the form of a prayer, that human beings build a better world and learn to work together. I do not want to put myself into a position of creating unjust coercion by fear or by other means, and I understand that although I have significant questions and reserve about what you express in these threads that I also have a lot to learn from you. So, in writing this I am asking you to consider that maybe you have many lessons waiting that can be brought about by the others participating in these threads. I have found, in my life, that the questions and the view points that I have have a place and have validity even when I have undergone significant change in how I view the world; I have experienced that this is one of the hallmarks of a lesson, or lessons, being truly revealed; that is that I see how my questions and views fit into the new view.


Peace and Blessing,

David





[removed part of first sentence / corr. typo in 2nd par. - 112305].

 

1. No, the prophecy does not fall apart, once you realize that it is a prophecy.

2. If you lay out the prophecies, then you will understand that they were fulfilled by accounts that mirror them in the New Testament.

3. All of those prophecies will be found in Ezk. 36, 37, 38, and 39.
With one execption, and that is the order the Jews would retake the land. And that will be found in Zec. chapter 12. It also states how upset the Jews will be when they find out who has saved them. For the God of the Bible states, then they will Look upon Me who they periced and they will morn for Him as one would morns for His only Son. Terrible greif will come to the nation of Israel when they finally discover who their God really is.

4. If you read about the destruction of Babylon in Revelation 18 it really makes little sense. If you read about the destruction of Babylon in Jer. 50,and 51 the story is still lacking. Yet, put both Books together, and you start to see the whole picture.

 

I'm going to jump in here for a minute.

Campbell, points for you to consider:

The scriptures of "other religions", specifically Hinduism, can be proven to be true by other means than demonstrably fulfilled prophecies.

These same scriptures also are prophetic, but the prophecies usually involve much longer periods of time than those in the Bible...in Hindu scripture, prophecy is more aeonic than relatively short-term...that doesn't make it necessarily untrue...no prophecy is true until it happens, and until your East Gate prophecy is fulfilled, the mathematical probability of its fulfillment stands at zero. A rough analogy...you can win the lottery ten times in a row but your probability of winning again always goes back to zero with each new game.

Allright, there are 300 prophecies about Christ that were fullfilled if you read the Bible the way you and JDFU do. Could it be possible that for each of those that came true there were ten that went unfulfilled, and didn't get written down?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your basic faith in God, which I highly admire...just raising some points that came to mind in following this discussion.

 

It doesn't say that, and I didn't say it in that post. I quoted the bible, which quotes Jesus as saying that Jesus speaks in parables.

fable: a fictitious narrative or statement: b : a narration intended to enforce a useful truth;

parable: a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle

 

Sometimes.

It is not. A parable is not 100% accurate. It means something other than what its words mean.

You need to consider the people who live around and defend the gate- it is in their best interests to keep the gate standing to support their faith:

"The article stated that some members of the group had suggested catching the Jordanian defenders of the city off guard by blowing open the sealed Eastern Gate. But the leader of the group, an Orthodox Jew, had vehemently protested the idea, stating that "the Eastern Gate can be opened only when the Messiah comes.""

An orthodox Jew did not want to open the gate because they desired to see the prophecy fulfilled. The gate still stands because people want to see the prophecy fulfilled.

The gate during the reign of Suleiman I was sealed to prevent the messiah's entering through the eastern gate. The sealing of the gate was motivated by the prophecy about the gate (the arabs wanted to prevent the messiah from entering the gate- they were supersticious about the prophecy).

In all cases, it is the prophecy that motivates those who have power over the gate. This is called a self fulfilling prophecy.

A self fulfilling prophecy occurs when "a false definition of the situation evokes a new behavior which makes the original false conception come true."

"In other words, once an expectation is set, even if it isn't accurate, we tend to act in ways that are consistent with that expectation. Surprisingly often, the result is that the expectation, as if by magic, comes true."

In other words, the prophecy is the motivation behind the gate being sealed, behind it not getting opened, etc.

Only God knows whether this prophecy will be completely fulfilled or if it is just another self fulfilling prophecy, you do not. Do not stir up useless disputes about that which you know nothing about! <-- this is written in the bible.

 

You didn't understand the verse as God intends it to be understood. You are not wise.

 

1. Can you demonstrate for me how Hinduism is true?

2. The East Gate prophecy has already been fulfilled on at least four points, so saying zero is far from accurate.

3. The Old Testament was finished four hundred years before Christ was born, so no, there were no other prophecies that went unfulfilled.

 

Parables could be fictitious stories, but it would be a mistake to believe they are all fictitious. And in the case for Christ, I donot believe they are fictitious. Definitions I have read sometimes say fictitious, and sometimes they just say telling one story to demonstrate a truth. It's a flip of a coin. I believe we should always error on the side of caution, before calling God a liar.

 

Truth tellers can use analogy. Fables are analogy, and 'true' stories can be used for analogy as well.



.

 

Yeah. Maybe God created people just to make the stories true.

God does lie sometimes. If you can't get your head around this little fact...

 

First of all, you need God to show you. Second of all, you need to have the desire to know the truth within you before God will show you the truth. You are too attached to your delusions to have any real desire to know the truth (at this point in your life).

You need to consider the people who live around and defend the gate- it is in their best interests to keep the gate standing to support their faith:

"The article stated that some members of the group had suggested catching the Jordanian defenders of the city off guard by blowing open the sealed Eastern Gate. But the leader of the group, an Orthodox Jew, had vehemently protested the idea, stating that "the Eastern Gate can be opened only when the Messiah comes.""

An orthodox Jew did not want to open the gate because they desired to see the prophecy fulfilled. The gate still stands because people want to see the prophecy fulfilled.

The gate during the reign of Suleiman I was sealed to prevent the messiah's entering through the eastern gate. The sealing of the gate was motivated by the prophecy about the gate (the arabs wanted to prevent the messiah from entering the gate- they were supersticious about the prophecy).

In all cases, it is the prophecy that motivates those who have power over the gate. This is called a self fulfilling prophecy.

A self fulfilling prophecy occurs when "a false definition of the situation evokes a new behavior which makes the original false conception come true."

"In other words, once an expectation is set, even if it isn't accurate, we tend to act in ways that are consistent with that expectation. Surprisingly often, the result is that the expectation, as if by magic, comes true."

In other words, the prophecy is the motivation behind the gate being sealed, behind it not getting opened, etc.

Only God knows whether this prophecy will be completely fulfilled or if it is just another self fulfilling prophecy, you do not. Do not stir up useless disputes about that which you know nothing about! <-- this is written in the bible.

 

1. Hinduism, or sanatana-dharma, has to be practiced in order to realize its essential truth...that's what it's all about, to help the individual reconnect with their eternally existing soul and its relationship with the supreme soul, or God. There's plenty of historical and scriptural evidence, as well as contemporary visible evidence, to support the fact that Hinduism is a faith that has deep roots and is very much alive, but the real demonstration of the truth of Hinduism occurs on an individual level...and, the truth of Hinduism is also the truth of Christianity...simply that we are all eternally existing spiritual entities, each with our own relationship with God. That's why I respect your faith, even though we may have philosophical differences...you have a real relationship with God and are definitely "on the path", as a Hindu would say.

2. That's why I gave the analogy about the lottery...every time you win, the probability of winning again goes back to zero...the prophecy has to be 100% fulfilled for it to be true.

3. You know more about that than I do, can't argue.

Peace and Blessings.

 

Only by your method of determining prophecy which, if you remember, was the original point of contention

Yes (if you believe the NT), and apples grow on trees, what does that have to do with what we're talking about?

Regardless, for the purposes of this discussion this is all still just off-topic rhetoric...

...as is this (although I think I'll try that just out of curiousity).

 

1. Saying Hinduism has truth on a personal level is no proof. The Bible has detailed prophecies that can be verfied. For some people their belief in Hitler
on a personal level was proof of their belief. Did that mean their belief was right. No, it just shows you how wrong a person can be. Hinduism requires blind faith, and blind faith is the worst kind of faith. In Scripture it speaks of the blind leading the blind and both falling into the pit. If you are going to believe in something, believe in it not because it makes you feel good, believe in it, because it is true.


2. Saying that a prophecy has to be 100% fulfilled for it to be true, is a cop out. Because there are a number of prophecies in the Bible that have been 100% fulfilled. Yet I donot see you claiming them on this post. The Bible said as we approach the last days the Jews would return to Israel, and retake Jerusalem. It stated that Israel would no longer be a split nation with two kings. Today Israel is one nation, with one leader over it. Will you embrace these prophecies now because they were fulfilled 100%? Of coarse not, you only came up with that 100% crap, to squeeze out of acceptence of the East Gate prophecy. The fact that only God knows the future and the Bible writes history before it happens means nothing to you, because only a man intereted in a God of truth, would be interested in a Book of truth.