Eastern Gate: An Atheist's Worst Nightmare

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-We are not forcing anyone to believe what we believe but rather setting forth what we believe. Christianity has been under attack and we are here to defend it in a lost world. We do, as Christians, have a right to do that in the Christian forum (and keep in mind that in the Christian forum we do not kick out people if they have a varied belief). Also, what we ultimately believe is believed by most True Christians (ie Christians by heart). Keep in mind that we are not just debating to win the argument but rather what this guy discovered...

THE BIGGEST SKEPTIC IN THE WORLD:​

IT COULD HAVE BEEN ME​

(courtesy of http://bibledesk.com/)


-To the best of my memory, before I came to the saving grace of Jesus Christ, I did not believe the Bible was true. I doubted whether there was a God and believed that we were born, lived so many years, and then died. I owned a successful business and thought that I had succeeded by my own wits.


One evening, my wife and I heard some documentation that these were the last days before Jesus Christ would actually return. Not really wanting to hear it, I almost walked out. Something kept me there, and I listened. I was not convinced. I still had doubts whether or not there was a God. I doubted whether there really was a Satan, heaven, hell, or a judgment. Just to be sure, however, I decided to do a little research. My idea was to find out if the Bible was really true. Indeed, if I could find one contradiction, one error, or anything in the Bible that was not true, then that would be all that was needed to disregard it. (I wasn't necessarily interested in whether we were in the latter days or not, but just trying to find out if the Bible was really true.) I believed this would take a very short time.

As I have learned, the Bible has about 10,000 prophecies (verses). Nearly one-third of the Bible is directly or indirectly related to prophecy. This endeavour led me into far more research than I could have suspected. One thing needed, was to determine when the Bible was actually written. Because of this, a study of biblical history and archaeology was necessary. I found the Old Testament was indeed written before the coming of Jesus, as the Dead Sea Scrolls (containing parts of the book of Isaiah) were proven to have been written before Jesus came. The book of Isaiah includes forecasts of Jesus. Thousands of clay tablets have also been found, which confirm many accounts in the Bible.

I began studying the prophecies in the Bible. My wife would go to the library for me to obtain documentation from reference books to see if the prophecies really did take place. One day went by, then two days, and then a week. Every prophecy that we were able to get information on proved to be accurate. Two weeks went by. Then four weeks passed. My job became of secondary importance. Every prophecy that we were able to verify checked as being true. I was astonished, but far from convinced. I still had doubts as to whether there was a God, a heaven, or a hell yet I had to be sure. Later, there were people who would show me what appeared to be contradictions in the Bible, yet these were not contradictions at all, but only a lack of research on the part of those that said these things. I was searching to find if the Bible was true. My wife spent a lot of time at the library making copies of various reference materials, which I would check out against the Scriptures. Stubborn, that's me. Even after four weeks of intensive study, proving prophecy after prophecy was true, I was still skeptical and refused to believe. I began taking more time off from my business and investing it in study. One month turned into two, and two months turned into four. The more I researched, the more determined I became. It wasn't possible. The Bible could not be perfect. Thousands of prophecies, and every one perfect? No, impossible! Sixty-six books written by many people over hundreds of years and not one error? If I would admit that, I would have to admit there was a God, and I was not prepared to do it, even after months of research.

My studies also included various translations of the Bible, checking prophecies against reference books, archaeological discoveries, just to mention some. It became an obsession with me. My foremost desire was to know the truth. Four months turned into many months. I've never known anyone, before or since, that was willing to take this amount of time just to find out if the Bible was true. Finally, I had to admit I was wrong.

If you would walk across the street 10,000 times and never get hit, then you would walk across the street the next time by faith. So it was with me. Finally, after spending almost countless hours of research, I had to admit the Bible is true and is indeed the perfect Word of God. Anyone willing to take the time I did and do the same research, could only come to the same conclusion, if they are honest with themselves. I may have been the biggest skeptic in the world, but now I know. It did not come easy, but by God's mercy and grace, it did come.

 

There is no "we" in here.

This is not the "Christian forum".
this is the christianity forum.
Big difference; the former implies ownership, ie, that this forum belongs to christians, which it doesn't.
This is not a fourm for christians by christians,
this is the christianity forum; a forum about christianity. a place where people go to discuss christianity

You don't have any power one way or the other to decide who comes here or how they should act. that's up to the mod.

You couldn't kick anybody out of here if you wanted to.

Who is this "we" you keep refering to? From what I can tell you and Campbell are the only two people in here who believe what you do. That's out of maybe 30 regular posters and who knows how many random posters, all of whom have as much right to be here as you do.

Why are you presenting this place as your own personal space, and why are you implying that there's some kind of concensus between some non-existant "we" in charge of it all?

Even the christians in here rarely agree with each other 100% about anything.

Appropriation and misinterpretation. Is this what your faith is about?

 

NaykidApe,

I know I could not kick anyone out of here nor do I desire to do so unless they are just being uncivil. And I know that this forum is not specifically for Christians but I think that it is ironic that the Christianity forum is majority of people bashing Christianity.

The we is me and Campbell... we are under attack right now and I am defending.

"From what I can tell you and Campbell are the only two people in here who believe what you do." Keep in mind there are very few Christians, but don't think that I think we are the only Christians in the forum. There are a handful of others here that are quality people.

"...all of whom have as much right to be here as you do." Man I when I say that in the other forums they chew me out. What every worldview can speak their mind except the Christian worldview?

I present it as if it is my own because it is my faith's forums. Although most people in here are far from what the Bible teaches.

Yes, many Christians do disagree with each other, but so do other faiths. The fact is the majority of Chrsitans agree that Jesus was God in the flesh, He died and rose again and will come again in the flesh and that is what matters.

 

Yeah, whatever.


As far as I'm concerned you were intentionally misrepresenting the function, format, and intention of this place to a guest and I don't think that kind of crap should be tolerated whether it's coming from a christian or an atheist or anybody else.

 

How does it reinforce the literal? Furthermore, is this how Christians of the 1st century would have understood it?

It speaks of wonders, yes. It uses hyperbolic imagery of universe-wide cataclysms too. Sun going dark, stars falling, etc. Stop reading the book through newspaper eschatology! Read the book as it is written. Apocalyptic writing in the order of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Isaiah. You CAN'T read it literally without doing great injustice to the text.

Yeah, the destruction of the temple, the end of the Jews ability to truly worship as the OT states, the destruction of their national and cultural identity... just footnotes in history...

And, as I stated the word "earth" used in context means "limited land area" not "all the known and unknown world."

And it is obvious that you have NOT read Josephus. What Rome did to Jerusalem is FAR worse than anything that has happened before or since. Dude, lakes of fish DIED because of the blood in the water. Hardened Roman soldiers (members one of the most brutally effective armies in history) became sick at the sight of the corpses.

The arrogance of your position is astonishing. That you, in the here and now, with no formal training that I am aware of in literature, biblical history, or ancient near east cultures and customs, would understand Revelation better than someone to whom it was written is almost offensive. The fact is, the people of the time would have a VERY clear picture of the imagery used and of its meaning.

And no, I am not ignoring the rest of the text. Most of the text is indifferent to either view and thus can be, in this conversation, ignored.

 

Ask God if you are under attack because you incorrectly interprete the bible.

 

JDFU,

I don't think you and Campbell are under malicious attack, there are just several people who are questioning your stance, very pointedly. Now when fuzzynuts was here, I'd call that all-out frontal assault, so much bullshit that it did prevent intelligent discussion.

 

Dear JDFU and campbell34,

Believe it or not, you and Christianity are not under attack. But you have to understand this, Christianity (and every religion) is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Everyone, regardless of their familiarity and/or identity with any of the spiritual traditions, has their own unique relationship with the divine. Depending on the individual's needs, one's religion may function as a hospital, a restaurant, a psyche ward, a university, a social club, a library, a safe house, a museum, a family reunion . . . and so on. What's more, as one's life changes, so does one's religion, one's relationship to the divine, if you will.

I wouldn't presume to speak for anyone else, but these days it seems that the lack of respect for any other person's relationship to the divine is one of the root causes for many of the problems one has to solve. Maybe if you humbly and honestly considered what some of our friends are saying about all of the other rooms in the house (in addition to yours), you may find a much richer understanding of your own faith. You would certainly improve your relationship to your fellows.

Whatever form it may take, it is this relationship between the human being and the divine, itself, that defines all religion. You must respect every person's relationship with, and understanding of, the divine, regardless of whether they address it as the Universe, or Reality, or The Tao, or Nature, Dharma, God, Allah, Bhagwan, Elohim, Abba, Adonai, Ha'Shem, Shiva, Vishnu, Jesus Christ, or any of a thousand names. Please trust me when I tell you that all of these are names for the same being.

Now, you can argue about names forever, but I am here to discuss the MEANING of all of this. You can stand firm in your belief that yours is the deepest understanding that anyone may attain, but now, more than ever, you know better. We may disagree, but this is actually healthy and enlightening once one learns to respect the value of another's (obviously different) points of view.

On that note, I am happy to hear of your insights. I hope to hear from you.

Peace and Love

 

A question arising ~

How is it that an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnipowerful deity requires any defending at all? Surely the mind, words, or opinions of humankind have no effect upon "the all powerful", and that Truth is presented in such a way as to be sufficient to stand unmoving upon It's own merit without any need of defending. But it seems not, which can mean only one thing ~ the basis upon which the "all-powerful" is being represented here is a falsity.

 

So, let me get this straight. Are you saying - you can question it, therefore, it doesn't exist? Since I don't believe that, I believe it's safe to ask - How would you prove YOU exist?

I think the apologist's defense is really a reaction to those who act with ignorance of what the divine is. For diametrically opposed reasons, they (Atheists AND Fundamentalists) are sometimes equally destructive.

Just a thought,

Peace and Love

 

I understand what you're saying MrRee, in fact I started a thread on this theme; Truth doesn't need to be defended... ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page ).

Jesus is never quoted as saying "defend the gospel". All he said was "preach the gospel".

 

You don't even believe th Bible so you can stop using it as a defense.

 

I agree with that. Sometimes it just seems that people are attacking when it could be just more of questioning... sorry for using the word "attacking" : )

 

Also nice to hear your insight : )

I do agree that are worldview is constantly changing. However, what I do not agree with is that Christianity is under attack. Now I am not saying it is the only religion that is being attacked but it seems more times that others it is the main religion that is attack. In sitcoms on the news everywhere. I mean just look at the philosophy/religion forum... which one has the most posts? And it is not posts that are satisfying to Christ. Keep in mind that Christ died for what he believe in. And so did all his discples. Even today missionaries still are killed because of their faith. Christianity not persecuted... doubt it.

On the note that Jesus is the same as all other Gods, that simply cannot be for just with the example of Christ, He states that "He is the way. He is the Truth. He is life and that there is no one else. So if Jesus is another God then Jesus was a liar. On top of that Paul states that there is one only one name under heaven that bear record and that is Jesus Christ. If Paul is wrong than the Bible is wrong. If the Bible is wrong then Christianity is wrong. Jesus can be other God's? ... nothing but a contradiction. He is either the ONLY God or a liar... plain and simple.

Thanks for your time : )

 

How does options used to describe the mark of the Beast reinforce the literal. That should be obvious. The very fact that the Bible is going the extra mile to tell you the details of this event, should be obvious even to you, that detail reinforces that event. The Bible is trying to make you understand, that a mark is going to be placed on your forhead or your right hand. The Bible tells you that without this mark you will not be allowed to buy or sell. And if you refuse this mark, you will be put to death. I don't think the Bible could make this any clearer.

Catapults are not MIRACLES. And no, it does not speak of WONDERS, it speaks of MIRACLES. There is a big difference between the two words. And this is just a small example how some try to slip words into the text, in order to take away from it's true meaning.

And I am reading the Book as it was written. In Matthew 24:3 Jesus disciples ask Him about the sign of His coming and the end of the world, NOT THE END OF ISRAEL. Jesus speaks plainly and states, nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And Christ states in the same chapter, that this gospel will be preached in all the world. AGAIN, NOT JUST ISRAEL

The destruction of Israel and Jerusalem was not the worst thing that ever happen. And it was not the worst to happen to the Jews either. When Rome marched on Jerusalem in 70 A.D. They killed 600,000 Jews and took 90,000 captive. These numbers pale in comparson to the six million Jews that were murdered in Hilters death camps. Also the Jews never lost their national or cultural idenity. Proof of this can be seen today by the very fact that Israel does exist, and Jerusalem is their captail.

My position is not backed by arrogance, but by the truth. I don't have to try and slip non Biblical words never mentioned in the Scripture to try and secure my position. And I don't have to overstate historical events to try and make a point. And when Jesus spoke of the world, He ment the world. And that is why Jesus stated, His gospel would be preached in all the world for a witness unto ALL NATIONS, and then shall the end come. At no point is earth ever in Scripture limited to Israel. The fact is, I believe the Scripture as it is written, and try to stay as close to the written word. Your approch takes to many liberties which will only lead you away from what is clearly stated. When you start saying earth is Israel, and fire coming down from heaven speaks of catapults you have gone beyond interpitation. Give me five people who would follow your example, and I will give you five interpretative stories from the same chapter of Scripture. I on the other hand have discovered, that my understanding of America in prophecy, is backed up by many other Christians who have come to that same understanding. And all of this, in the span of just a few years. Look up, ''AMERICA IS BABYLON'', and then tell me I'm wrong.

 

In the context of what i've questioned, I don't understand ~ are you saying - you can question it, therefore, it doesn't exist? Since I don't believe that, I believe it's safe to ask - How would you prove YOU exist?
What I am saying is that any "all powerful" deity really should be self evident to the effect that it needs no defenders. That "it" needs defence appears to evidence a non-existance of truth.

 

Should we move this to the other discussion? Having two conversations on the same topic gets confusing fast.

 

The reason I use the bible to rebuke you is my personal belief in the bible's usefulness.

Anyway, what I said was:

"Ask God if you are under attack because you incorrectly interprete the bible."

Just do it. Don't avoid God's judgement, it's the only way you can learn. Ask God!

 

Thank you, it means a lot to me.

You have to understand this - there are many people who either have no idea, or they have a very distorted idea about what Christianity truly is.

Without studying, they make their conclusions about Christianity according to what they see playing out in America's popular culture. Unfortunately, what they see are televangelists advocating intolerance, hatred and even assassination for their enemies.

They see people voting, in Christ's name, for war.

They see Christianity used as justification, and therefore consider it connected to, the Neo-Conservative's political abandonment of the poor, the sick, the aged.

They see Christianity used as justification for the philosophical abandonment of everything Jesus Christ meant when he taught you to love your enemies, to make peace, to attend to the poor, to speak truth, to be conscious, creative, good human beings.

They see a false Christianity that is antithetical to what Christianity, ideally and actually, is. That is why there is such resistance. People are scared.

Yes, this is true. This has always been true. But tell me something, the Roman Centurians who scourged Jesus and then nailed him to the cross, what were their names?

The people who stoned St. Stephen, the Romans who beheaded Saints Peter and Paul, the men who killed Joan of Arc, Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr. What was the "truth" they offered the world.

The men who killed the Jews at Auschwitz, Birkenau, Bergen Belsen, etc. whatever became of them and their "vision"?

You cannot claim identity with Christ, with the Saints, with God if you ignore or abandon what they died for.

There are no other Gods. You are still thinking like a polytheist. All of these names for God refer to the very same God who inspired Jesus.

There is no other Reality, there is no other Universe, there is no other Tao, there is no other Dharma, there is no other Allah, there is no other Bhagwan, there is no other Elohim, Abba, Adonai, Ha'Shem, Shiva, Vishnu, there is no other Christ.

There is no other God.

If you honestly believe God to be infinite, then there is no place where God is not. If you believe that human beings were made in his image, then you have to consider the idea that all humans can know God.

This would, of course, include Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Taoists, Confucianists, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Rastafarians, Shamanists, Panentheists, Pantheists, Pagans, and yes, even Atheists.

You may be surprised the way the wisest of each of the traditions actually affirms one another's understanding. For example:

"Sh'ma Y'Israel, Adonai Elohainu, Adonai Echad" - Hear Oh Israel, the Lord your God, The Lord is one.
"La Ilaha Illa Allah" - There is no God but God.
"God is one, the wise know him by many names."

Paul also says - "God is love." 1 John:4

It's all yours.

Peace and Love