Ego loss is not ego loss.

I've only experienced true "classic ego-death" twice in all my journeys on psychedelics.
I's fucking terrifying in a sense, but also very liberating as you realize that "you" are a lot more than all the things that you, your relationships and society have dictated that you are. It's hell going into it, liberation and bliss coming out the other side.
It is also one of those type of experiences that once you've been there, there is no question whether you did or not.

It also is a combination of dose, setting, mind set and intention coupled with a willingness to "let it all go" and leave all attachments to this "world" behind.

I'm curious Walsh, have you much personal experience with psychedelics and have you ever experienced what is termed "ego-death" yourself.

This is still one of the best descriptions of the phenomena I have heard;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hW6Dm_m5t4"]Richard Alpert (Ram Dass) on LSD - YouTube

 

ego loss is when you no longer feel that your personal identity defines you. 'you' feel like you have no center and are part of this pure awareness unfettered by conditioning. in buddhism transcending your ego does not mean awareness is gone, its actually the highest state of awareness. the thing that you have lost is attachment, self-centeredness, and ignorance. the non-dual mind perceives itself as one with reality because of ego-loss.

 

Yes - and like yourself, it was terrifying and bliss in that order. But there was always someone there experiencing that terror and bliss.

 

Cool, like I said I think the main difference in our opinions is one of definition.
The term "ego" can and does take on different definitions depending on what school of thought one is operating in.

Personally I don't consider the "thing" that observes and experiences as the "ego", but for lack of a better term "soul".
Ego is yet another thing which is experienced, IMHO.
My line of thinking is very much as Richard Alpert's in the above video.
:2thumbsup:

 

walsh, i think you are still able to experience and observe without the "ego." you just do it without the conditioned filters that make up your ego and therefore your normal definition of "you."

 

Then what is left - what is this soul or unconditioned you? It seems to me we are on the wrong track when describing these experiences. What is it we are experiencing during ego-loss?

Does everyone agree that to experience something there must be present at least some knowledge to view that experience from? That knowledge is the past, and constitutes the self - all that we are is built from our past experiences. What you are saying is that somehow, a trip selectively removes some of the past and retains other parts of it, and it is that other part which is looking at the experience.

I have heard of people experiencing things during trips that does not form part of their own knowledge - like seeing Tibetan mandalas and ancient idols they have never seen before, so it does raise the possibility of some kind of shared consciousness.

 

yes, that is what we are saying


you are not ONLY your past experiences. what is a person when they are first born and have ZERO past? surely, they are not...nothing.

ego does not = you!

the ego is all of societies conditioning, and subconscious "filters" on your senses. that's sort of the way i see it.

read "brave new world" by huxley


other than on my salvia breakthrough, i'm not sure that i've experienced ego loss. which mean i haven't by most peoples' standards. but the ego as i just described it isn't...that big of a deal? i mean, couldn't there be some people who after getting acquainted with the psychedelic experience, might not cling to their ego so strongly?

 

Did you experience/remember your birth? Or anything, for that matter, up until you acquired knowledge about the world and yourself from your parents and teachers by which you could experience, understand and interpret the world? I think not.

Conditioning? Everything is conditioning. We see a table as a child and do not know what it is. Our mother tells us it is a 'table', which is a thing apart from us and 'not us'. We find that beneficial and enjoyable in communication so we use it. Why is that not removed during your ego loss?

I've read it, what does it have to do with anything?

My experience is that after the psychedelic experience they cling ever so more strongly, albeit in other forms and despite their best attempts to escape from it.

 

We are now at a point in the discussion where personal spiritual/religious beliefs come into play.
If a person does not believe in a "something" that pre-existed before birth and that does not continue beyond our physical death, then they will most likely adopt Walsh's viewpoint.

Conversely, if a person believes that such an "eternal" aspect does exist, then they will tend to adopt mine and pork's viewpoint.
I'm not trying to say one is superior to the other, just pointing out what I have noticed over decades of similar such discussions with individuals across the whole spectrum of beliefs.

Again it really just is a difference on where a person draws the line concerning consciousness and when it begins and ends and how that is defined by the person.

Greatest part about it is nobody living knows for sure one way or the other. It's all an ever unfolding mystery play that we are all just members of the cast as well as members of the audience.
Ain't it just fucking wonderful :sunny:

 

I don't know, things would be much simpler if the soul was never invented (and it was invented )

 

on a strong, ego-dissolving trip, you can experience, but not necessarily understand or interpret. just like a baby.
in fact, i think there are a few parallels between tripping and being an infant or young animal.

on a REALLY strong trip, you might not know what a "table" is

i shit you not, when i came back to reality from my salvia breakthrough, i was attempting to dive into my coffee table. it was NOT a table in salvia land. i was trying to become a part of it.

i've felt a major sense of one-ness on other psychedelics like LSD or 2ce. the line between "me" and "not me" (the park bench, the snow, the air) has gotten pretty fuzzy, but never disappeared for me.

conditioning.

i would agree that psychedelics probably don't help one to separate themselves from their ego in every day life. maybe they help re-mold one's ego though.

i don't think i believe in the type of eternal aspect that you are talking about.



i never thought i had a good understanding of "ego loss" anyways.
i'm just making conversation really.

 

The ego derivers from the mind that has made an identity out of itself throughout your whole life. The ego goes away when one is fully present in the moment. Fully present as in fully aware. Pure consciousness. When you are fully present your thoughts go away and you feel good naturally. You feel the love of your Being. The pure energy that gives you life to your body. Or you go through a living hell and the ego dissolves because of past misery. Peace,

Moke

 

Come on, that's nonsense. Present in the moment? What does that even mean. Who is it that's present? What you are really doing is thinking about being present and being 'pure consciousness', which is not being 'present in the moment.' You cannot make the ego go away through any act of volition or will.

 

Firstly, every individual's perception of Existence is built on a model. This model is created by the originality and associations of thought in the human mind.

It has been my understanding that a principle goal of psychonautics is Ego-Loss.

In my experience, ego-softening ("-loss") induced by entheogens is likely to be forceful and can vary between bliss and discomfiture. The experience is subjective and differing, often influenced by the substance as well.

Ego-softening from sober practices is less readily apparent, but often longer lasting, or affecting on the life of the individual.

I have never experienced true ego-loss whilst sober, but Ego-Softening is apparent in my life, and I am proud and glad of the fact.

Being intelligently reactional entirely in the present is a feeling of being content, yet still self-actualizing. This is not the loss of your ego.

True ego-loss is no awareness whatsoever, and it is only recognized in hindsight. Ego-loss is the abolition of the perception model, and thus results in inexperience of Existence (the only means of experiencing the totality of Existence; as everything and nothingness are singular without distinction).

This state, when achieved through entheogens or other psychonautic practices, is not permanent, because the functioning of the brain is not affected adversely.

This may mean that lasting ego-death equates to physical death as well, since complete annihilation of the ability to perceive can really be achieved only through the incapability of the mechanisms of the model to function, i.e. death.
(This is, of course, based on the premise that cessation of neurological activity results in the end of perception; this premise may be flawed, as it does not account for the other realities composing Existence. Nonetheless, current knowledge is current ha, and I'm no time traveler.)

 

^^^i liked your post...but isn't this a little contradictory?

:sunny:

 

This was the distinction I was making between self awareness and ego loss and moke did a good job of describing how the ego can be loss but self awareness can still be present, that is if one accept's the ego loss experience from a psychedelic as being a mystical transcendent experience.

Lack of self awareness would be something like blacking out or a coma, and what's interesting about the former example in particular, is that we can make the argument that self awareness may be gone but the ego may still be present. Certain stages of sleeping could maybe be considered lack of self awareness as well.

With ego and self awareness fully present, I present a hypothetical situation and will give two options for what I would say are fairly common responses.

You are sitting around a table with a couple people and one person poses the question "What's your favorite thing to do on a Sunday?"

Responses:
A) "I enjoy watching football."
B) "I enjoy watching football myself."
Are these two answers saying the exact same thing?

 

Thank you porkstock41.
As for your question, I'd say definitely not.
Ego in the term "ego-softening" is not the same as in "one's big ego". (Homonyms sure are fun haha.)
In the former term, ego is the functioning model of perception, while the former is an inflated sense of self-worth or importance.

In fact, I'd say that ego-softening ought to make you feel proud and happy.
It means that the appreciation of Existence is setting in.

guerillabedlam, I certainly agree with the post made by moke64916.

However, I cannot be sure that I agree with the ego-loss being akin to coma or blacking out. These states are, respectively, a lack of the capacity to function and an inability to remember. Neither of these are similar to an inability to perceive Existence.

If I had to hazard my own idea of what an inability to perceive would be like, I suppose it would be most like being retarded in a severe way, but not physically handicapped. You would still take in stimuli, as reception of information is not involved directly with perception's functioning. So, you would still physically see, hear, feel, smell, and taste, but you could not process any of these stimuli.

I wish I could remember an achieved ego-loss; too bad it's paradoxical.

Oh, and I would not say that both responses were stating the same thing.
The first response was an individual who enjoys watching football.
The second response was an individual who enjoys watching football.
Two individuals presenting two separate responses.

 

I don't know about ego-softening. If you view the ego as NoxiousGas does - as a subset of the self, then it can be set on a scale of weak to strong. If it's equated with the self, then any value we accredit to it cannot be considered 'soft' or 'hard' because it's our own valuation.

 

No walsh, I believe you misunderstood me. Perhaps another read through. If not..

The ego is an individual's model of perception; the coordinator of perceived reality, working off the constructed frames of a psyche.

Ego-softening simply refers to the effect of a more present self; a sort of experiencing of Existence with less association.

 

I see, sort of. What do you mean association? You mean being aware that I'm aware of this table I'm sitting at? As opposed to just being aware of the table.