Evolution

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by ObjetdArte, May 30, 2009.

  1. Hoatzin

    Hoatzin Senior Member

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    It is, of course, one study that does not make anything like the bold claims that the article suggests (science reporting in the media being slightly less reliable than political rhetoric in establishing anything about reality). However, I am glad that you have agreed with me that this fact alone does not prove anything other than that one organ commonly regarded as vestigial may not be. It certainly doesn't serve as evidence against an argument that a body is not perfectly designed for everything that it is supposed to do.

    I do think that your comparison of an organ which only impacts upon a person's life when it gets sick to missing limbs is a case of using ridiculous hyperbole to support an untenable argument though. To a given value of "vestigial", where something serves no vital function and is not missed when it's gone, the appendix is still vestigial.

    Answer the question. If the body is designed, there are two questions here:

    1) If I am supposed to play with my G-spot or make myself throw up, why are the parts of the body that allow this in such inconvenient places
    2) If I am not supposed to play with my G-spot or make myself throw up, why are there parts of my body that allow this at all?

    I am not being at all facetious. I get that the body doesn't have to be able to fly, breathe underwater or travel through time to be argued as "perfect", but why design something that both allows sin but also makes it (no pun intended) a bit of a pain in the arse?
     
  2. Hoatzin

    Hoatzin Senior Member

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    That would be logically fallacious. My statement made no claim about the Bible, only about common erroneous attitudes towards scientific theory. The fact that those arguments are commonly made by Christians is the reason I made the post in this thread, but other than that I don't see how you could make the assumption that you have.

    Updating the theory about what shape the earth is DOES make it stronger not weaker though.

    A statement of fact that is absolutely true whether we agree with it or not IS a theorem by definition. One of the best known theorems is Pythagorus', and a layman can "prove" to himself that it's proven by trying to disprove it a few times. Why would you not want God's word to be treated as a theorem if you are certain that it is a statement of fact?

    Chapter and verse on the second one please.

    As to the first, you have no more firsthand experience of God's thinking than you do that of a badger or an osprey. Perfection implying purpose, and God being the author of the Bible, I would think that the bias inherent in taking his word for it on what thinking is for would be obvious.
     
  3. Rudenoodle

    Rudenoodle Minister of propaganda Lifetime Supporter

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    OWB, can you site three examples as to why Evolution is improbable?


    What exactly is it that no sells this theory for you?
     
  4. Okiefreak

    Okiefreak Senior Member

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    Do you see the circularity of your arguments? The notion that the Bible "was authored by God who knows what he's talking about" is just your theory. Just because you believe it doesn't mean it's true. I think there is an abundance of convincing evidence showing that the Bible was authored by many different men seeking God. There were several different authors even for the Pentateuch, and the gospels of the New Testament differ and contradict each other in ways only a "True Believer" like yourself could deny. There's a lot of wisdom in the Bible, but it's not infallible and not on a par with science as a source of knowledge about the natural world.
     
  5. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Another country heard from.

    Please show me where I ever said that anything is true just because I believe it. You can't because I've never ever said that or even implied it.

    How many times do I have to say it? Yes, I believe that what I believe is the truth and will argue it like it is the truth, because I believe it to be the truth but that in it's self does not make it the truth. That is why I have always said look it up for yourself, reason it out for yourself. How many times do I have to quote Acts 17:11.

    The Bible is either the word of god or it's not. If it is not, fine it's just a theory and needs proof but if it is the word of God it is not a theory and is the truth and needs no proof. The truth is the truth and does not need to be proved true, it is true.



    If you want to believe what the "higher critics" say about the Bible that is your prerogative but where does that leave your "faith"?

    If I remember correctly you've called yourself a "Christian" but what does that mean? If you believe that the Bible is just a book that has some wisdom in it, then what does that make Jesus? Jesus quoted from the Bible extensively, does that make him a fool for doing so? Why did he call it the word of God? (Matthew 15:6) Was Jesus too stupid to know better? If so why do follow him and his teachings? Do you really think that if the "higher critics" were alive in Jesus' day, he would have said; you're right, I don't know what I could have been thinking of, never mind?

    Oh and if I'm mistaken and you aren't a "Christian" just disregard the last two paragraphs and never mind. :D
     
  6. JusSumguy

    JusSumguy Member

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    Cuz that's where they ended up silly.

    How would you know if you're not supposed to do it? It's not a sin to masturbate. And it sure helps with the tension. Why wouldn't God want you to do it.

    It's about your heart. If you think you're committing a sin, then you just might be.

    Methinks you worry too much.

    Evolution is a proven scientific fact.

    Is this an attempt at linking the origin of life issue into evolution?

    Apples and oranges. Evolution is the history of animals and flora...etc as they progress through time. Does not even address how it all got started. As far as the scientific persuit of evolution--->Life started.

    Abiogenesis is the (futile :)) attempt to scientifically splain the origin of life itself.

    Are you asking about the origin of life? Or evolution?



    -
     
  7. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Rudenoodle said the appendix was a vestigial organ this article says it may not be, so I posted it, no more no less.

    Once again you can think any thing you like, Rudenoodle had asked; Why do people who have there appendix removed not die from the lack of "good bacteria?" I was just pointing out that people have had a lot more valuable things removed and had not died, so basically not dying because your appendix is removed does not make it a vestigial organ, anymore than having an arm removed and not dying makes your arm a vestigial organ. I was not comparing a missing limb to anything but just showing that not dying when something is removed does not in of it’s self prove that it is vestigial.

    What for? Do I look like the Shell Answer Man to you? I didn’t design the human body and thus I’m not privy to any knowledge about the human body that you aren’t. ;)

    I didn’t even know that a G-spot for men existed, unless you are a women. And who said you were suppose to play with it? Why do you want to make yourself throw up, are you bulimic? Perhaps, you need medical attention?
    Once again, I didn’t even know that a G-spot for men existed, unless you are a women and in that case, it is there for sexual enjoyment. As for the gag reflex, it is there so you don’t choke to death, not for you to play with.

    A car allows for you to get drunk and crash into things but it wasn’t designed for that purpose. If you use the human body as it was designed, it tends to give you very little trouble, although we are still heir to sin and death.
     
  8. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    That would be also true if you always spoke logically but the simple fact is you don’t. I made the assumption on the simple fact that is what you usually say, I’m sorry if I was mistaken but your reply seems to indicate that I probably wasn’t.

    The simple truth is that no matter how times up you update something that is not true, it will never become true. If a theory is not true, no matter how strong you might make it seem it will always be untrue.

    You can treat God Word any way you want, if you want to prove it or disprove it go ahead but if it is the truth your doing so will not make it any more or less the truth.

    Please note that I said; “the Bible indicates what thinking is for”, which means that it doesn’t make a direct statement as such about what thinking is for but it does help us to know how to use our thinking abilities.

    Once again just because you don’t believe the Bible is God’s word does not mean it isn’t and if it is, the Bible gives insight into God’s thinking on matters.
     
  9. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    I believe this is where I came in.
     
  10. jmt

    jmt Ezekiel 25:17

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  11. Freedom_Man

    Freedom_Man Senior Member

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    i really dont see how you can believe in the christianity and evolution at the same time, let me explain.

    death, disease, all that stuff, to me, is just a natural part of evolution and life in general.

    but to the christian, death, disease and such is a result of mans sin, and jesus is needed to pay for that sin.

    if there was no "original sin" to bring this stuff in the world, then salvation through jesus christ is not nesecarry.

    im not a christian, and i dont know enough information to say whether or not i believe in evolution, but this is a reason i have came up with why evolution and the bible are not compatible. if anyone thinks im wrong, feel more than free to correct me.

    well peace out
     
  12. Hoatzin

    Hoatzin Senior Member

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    Calling this "the simple truth" doesn't change the fact that you're wrong either. If one aspect of a theory does not sit with reality, and you change that aspect of the theory so that it does fit reality while still remaining concomitant with the totality of theory, then it is objectively truer than it was before.
     
  13. Hoatzin

    Hoatzin Senior Member

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    If you eat something poisonous, being able to make yourself throw up in a hurry is useful. There are other times when throwing up now is preferable to throwing up later.

    OK, please trust me that, in so far as a "g-spot" is a real thing (I really don't feel like getting into that with you right now), yes, there is one up your ass.

    The difference is that no-one is making the claim that the car was designed by anyone infallible or omniscient.

    You really are ducking the question here. If you believe that the body was designed, how do you explain these "features" of the body? If we are supposed to use them, why are they so hard to use? And if we aren't supposed to use them, why are they there at all?
     
  14. neodude1212

    neodude1212 Senior Member

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    lol is he still talking about that car stuff?
    damn!
     
  15. Hoatzin

    Hoatzin Senior Member

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    Is this an old trope? It's nice to know that, while God is objectively right from all perspectives and has a command of language that trascends semantics and knows the answers to questions about the universe that Man hasn't even figured out how to ask yet, it still makes total sense to compare him to a car designer. Obviously hasn't seen [iFight Club[/i].
     
  16. neodude1212

    neodude1212 Senior Member

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    Yes, an old trope that's been revealed as irrelevant and inadequate many times, but apparently OWB has enormous respect for car designers.
     
  17. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Yep, I happen to like cars. ;)
     
  18. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Yep. ;)
     
  19. OlderWaterBrother

    OlderWaterBrother May you drink deeply Lifetime Supporter

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    Oh please, reveal it one more time. ;)
     
  20. neodude1212

    neodude1212 Senior Member

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    ;) ;) ;)
     

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