For Christians or anyone else Interested in Paganism...

Being born again has nothing to do with church but is the only way to heaven. It isn't a physical rebirth but a spiritual rebirth. Simply put, asking Christ to be your personal savior. You say you pray to Christ however, not many prayers will get to Him unless you are a true follower of him. Campbell34 says it well, "Praying to God without being Born Again, is like talking on a cell phone with dead batteries."

 

so god only listens to those who are Born Again? Interesting.....

 

The dominant Christian um... sub-religion.. around here is Southern Baptist, and I have went to different ones, and being born again consists of the preacher making an alter call or something like that. Besides, I dont know what Jesus meant when he said that and neither do you, because we are reading a translated version of a translated version of araimic(sp?). I personally dont believe Heaven or Hell is the destination right after death... maybe its reincarnation, or reincarnation in a sense that you are born into your same self again in another universe and live your life all over again(thus dejavu). I am not really christian... a true christian is christ like thats where the term came from, I dont perform miracles and I am not pure at heart... Even Christ says "Mt:5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

I dont have the self restraint to be perfect yet... and I dont like having one set belief to go by my entire life, its like on dogma, I'd rather have some faith and have Ideas about the way everything works... and Paganism is just that...

 

also I didnt start this thread to be only about Christianity, it was meant to show Pagan's true colors, its not some devil worshiping cult, its people that have an extreme respect for the Earth Mother. (oh edit: I was corrected, not all Pagans are earth based, I guess I am refering to the Earth Based sect of Paganism...)

And there is always thats question... What about the people in remote jungles that have had no contact with christians and maybe they pray to a creator(s)? they dont know what "born again" means, are their prayers answered? I seriously doubt a creator would ignore people like that... unless creation is some sort of cruel joke, and I hardly think it is...

 

Jesus' explanation of being born again is written in John 3; I know what it means because I have read it. Although the Bible has been translated from different languages the same meaning is there. Maybe it is reincarnation but you are still not sure? Jesus is clear on what he means by being born again.

Although we are to be Christ-like it is impossible to be perfect as Christ was. The reason why Christ was perfect was so that He could cover for are short fallings (For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God). The verse you have quoted (Mt. 5:48) is from the sermon on the mount. Jesus basically tells the Jews how perfect one has to be in order to enter heaven. The Jews response: "That's IMPOSSIBLE to be that perfect."

For you see one must be perfect to enter heaven. So how does an imperfect person enter a perfect place? The answer: accept perfect Jesus who has taken up our iniquities on the cross.

I don't know anyone, besides Jesus, that is or was perfect. But through Him we can be perfect, in a sense, to enter the kingdom of heaven. Ultimately, it does not matter what you prefer but what is true. The God of the Bible is the truth--his words demand it.

 

For those who trully seek the Lord; He reveals himself to them in one way or another...



There is an example of a man who was in a situation much like the scenario we are discussing. His name was Cornelius. He was a very religious man who was constantly praying to God. He was gentile who had not heard of Jesus Christ, but he was honestly asking God to reveal Himself to him.

 

(Continued)



God answered the prayer of Cornelius, and sent the apostle Peter to him to give him the gospel. He did it then and he will do it today. This example demonstrates that anyone who is sincerely desiring to know God will hear about Jesus.

 

(Continued again... it keeps screwing up sorry)



There are people today, like Cornelius, who are praying the same prayer to know the true and living God, and they are being reached no matter where they might live. Simon Peter stated, “I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34–35). God says if you seek me with all your heart you will find me. Paul stated God is not hidden but is as close to you as your breath.

 

Ok, seriously... thats what turned me away from Christianity... we can sit here and argue about the dogma forever, because in Christianity there is supposedly only one right way and every different denomination in Christianity has their own view of that "one" way. I can get verses to contradict almost all of what you have just said. I use to do it all the time to people to try and prove that my version of christianity was "right". Then I woke up and realized all this dogma, and tradition has nothing to do with the true meaning of why we were put here on this Earth... We are here to live and to love... This thread has become what I didnt want it to be...

I would like to know what Heron has to say about all of this...

 

Ok we are here to live and to love... pretty vague.... so then how does one go to heaven (if there is a heaven in your version of Christiananity). And I seriously would like to hear those verses that you have that refute what I say.

 

NatureFreak412,
I don't mean to come off as proselytizing... heck, can't even spell it. However, might I suggest you check a Unitarian Universalist church. They have the freedoms you're espousing and can provide warm bodies to bounce your ideas off rather than message boards and internet. There is several in North Alabama including Hunstville. Was that near you? I'm both Pagan and UU.

http://www.uua.org/CONG/results.php?s_method=state&state=AL&submit3=GO!

 

Thanks for the link Scrap Rat. But isnt this the whole purpose of the free speach forums? To "bounce Ideas"

and for JesusDiedForU

It never says Jesus was the ONLY perfect person. Or at least what I have read, and I havnt read the entire Bible, I am 17 and I have other things on my mind. And when someone falls short of the glory of god that means they FALL SHORT and do not receive it.... If you are walking along and decide to jump a hole in your path and you fall short of the other side then boom you hit the bottom.

Mt:19:21
Rv:3:2


I havnt found where it says man is completly imperfect in the bible, the bible seems very strict for me. He told the whore GO and sin NO more. HE didnt say go and attempt not to send, he said go and sin no more. I agree with you, people are imperfect by nature, and tend to make really stupid mistakes. But according to the bible we are made in Gods image and likeness, and if he is perfect then shouldnt we be? But like I said, I am only 17 and dont know exactly how everything is 100% and I am still experimenting with ideas and such.

Live and Love "vague"?

OK if thats not why we are here then whats the real cause? To be slaves to some god? I doubt that, if that was the case he/she would have been smart enough to NOT give us free will or not give us the chance to acquire it.

The bible has alot of contradictions in it, I hate to say it but you can read them. Most of the bible wasnt even meant ot be refered to all of mankind, just specific groups of people. Heron has said some things on this, thats why I would like for him to come and give his opinion.

Dont have any harsh feelings towards me or anything any of you, thats stupid its just Ideas I have....

 

Also... what I dont really understand is why someone could be damned to an eternity in hell for not doing something such as Baptism or having a small flaw in their dogma because they didnt know any better... If a creator had all knowing knowledge of all the times, then wouldnt he know whether or not a person would be going to hell... so what would be the point in creating them so he could watch them being tortured forever?

 

Yes, but I personally prefer human contact now and then. Sometimes us heretics can feel exiled to our little cyber ghetto and not realize that there are others near us in the meatworld asking the same questions and sometimes finding the same answers.

 

Do a Google search on 'Universal Restoration'. Should provide you with a lot of food for thought. Also check out the writings of Origen. An overview of his beliefs, a biography, etc. can be found here:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/o/origen.htm

 

I understand that that you want only your religion to be right, and,
sadly, based on the covenant of the Hebrew people worshipping only
one god, and the bastardization of the teaching of Jesus, your beliefs
allows only that.

Let me start by saying that all religions are correct, even Christianity,
that said, lets begin. Now, i know that your dogma will not allow you
to believe this as truth, but hopefully, people who are actually allowed
to open their own minds will get it.

In the time before record, man emerged from the animal world as
a dominate predator. With this came more time to "think" with this
thinking we realized "ourselves" thus were the beginnings of
the human conscience, or Self. Upon the discover of Self, he
sought to understand the world around him. He realized his
birth, from his mother, and how it related to the birth of the world
around him, from our Mother.

So there are the beginnings of reverence and worship, as it was
for the Great Mother of us all, of all animals and plants, that is
the Great Mother Earth Herself.

Ok, that aside, lets move into later tribal religio-mythological origins.

The founder of a tribe was the patriarch of the decendents, the
founders, and great heroes of a people were often times revered
and prayed to by their decendents, SO in combination with their
worship for the First Mother, they also began to worship their
first ancestors, by which the ancestors became gods. These gods
were arranged in pantheons, and these pantheons included the ancestors,
and the forces behind nature that they actually came to control, or was
simply acredited with.

Eventually, the world over, these tribes grew, and the pantheons spread to other parts of the world, where they people (as pagans did) merged with the locals and accepted their gods and local spirits into their pantheons, always keeping their own though. Gods were of tribes and places, and traveled with them.

With isolation, some myths took on new writings, new adventures, and some gods became replaced, or sometimes just renamed with the evolution
of the language. Thus is the case with lots of Indo-European deities.

More specifically, the Germano-Celtic similiarity based on their Danubian origins at the Black Sea and their migration along the Danube river before splitting, and later becoming two seperate nations.

All of these things, like the rest of the world, happened in the Middle East,
and this is where your faith comes into play. Now keep in mind that the Hebrews were polytheistic, even after the times of the covenant with Yahweh and Moses, up until the time of Elijah, when they became more devoted to the covenant. BUT just like all faiths, this one too had an origin.

This is in my journal, but to show how your faith too is just like mine, in that it was born of tribal origins, but that we simply worship different deities, and unlike you, I can have the freedom to believe in them all, without comprimising my own faith to my own gods.

El was the father god of Abraham and the Canaanite people, he
was the supreme of the pantheon.

The Hebrews were pantheists as well, even when they
went back to worship of Ba'al while Moses was on Sinai.

I think that El was the true god of Abraham, and that
Yahweh came onto the scene when he confronted Moses
in the Burning Bush. He said he was the god of Abraham,
but refused to give a name. Moses believed him, and took
his word back to Egypt. After the Exodus, Moses preached
to the Hebrews that Yahweh was jealous and must be
worshipped alone, acknowleding the reality of other gods,
and they and Moses took covenent with Yahweh that they
would worship him alone.

Yahweh convinced Moses of who he was. Got the Hebrews to
agree he is their one god, he literally chose them, that is
why they are "Gods Chosen"

Anyway, enter Elijah years later. Of and one the Jews kept
their covenent with Yahweh. Elijah went to preach against
their worship of Ba'al (who Yahweh had already absorbed)

He challenged the 450 prophets, and alas was the winner.
Since Ba'al was dead, by Yahweh, he couldnt participate.

To prove his strength, Yahweh later sends a storm, after
Elijah slaughtered Ba'al's priests of course (starting the
whole killing in the name of god complex that Yahweists
always fall back on) to show that he was indeed more
powerful that Ba'al, the storm god.

El was sort of distant, but Yahweh (El's "new self") was always eager to show off and
rush to help, like people who do charity for the good name.

The Hebrews eventually stuck with their convenent
and became true monotheists.

I used to theorize that Yahweh took a break
after Jesus, and during the building of the Church,
onlly to appear 600 years later to Mohammed.

That the Christians were worshipping Jesus,
while the Jews still worshiped Yahweh, and
that he appeared later to the arabic tribes.

But recent finds change my theory.

Yahweh was always with the Jews. He chose them.
But he was a con. He never was the god of Abraham, El was,
and that he used Moses as a tool of propoganda, with
all the credit he received in the books Moses wrote.

Jesus was a prophet of El, telling the Jews to come
back to their father, the father of their tribe. But the
Jews were waiting on the prophet promised by
Yahweh, which Jesus was not.

El, the true god of Abraham, re-appeared to Mohammed,
of the Ishmal line, as Al-lah. Once again
becoming the supreme god to his people. The
Arabs left their pantheons behind and worshipped
their one true god of Abraham, Allah.

The scholars say that El (canaanite god) was just the
first name of Yahweh, and that he eventually became
supreme over the pantheon.

Yahweh was a war god of another pantheon of the time
only to go on a quest to become a supreme god.

His jealousy lead to the war in heaven, he wanted to
be the Supreme. The story is flipped. The parts of the
Bible that talk about the war in heaven was written by
Moses, by Yahweh telling him the story.

Yahweh, wanting to be the good guy, the God
of Abraham, wanted to sound the best.

He told of the war in heaven, of his opposer and
how he was cast down. (dont worry of Lucifer,that name
was added later by Romans)

What happened in the war in heaven? The Supreme
God (El) had his world, and his angels. But someone
wanted all of that, someone wanted the glory. There
was a war, and he was cast down.

I think he (Yahweh) was cast down, and when he was,
he went to Moses, convinced him who he was, and
started on his way to becoming the Supreme God he
wanted, through lies and propoganda.

Think about it, first, again forget the names Set-an and Lucifer,
both different gods of different cultures. Instead, concetrate
on the "Opposer" that the Hebrew Scriptures speak of.

What did the "Opposer" want? To be god, to have what El had,
because he was jealous. What, based on this new polytheistic
account of the OT, did Yahweh want? To be cause, because
he was jealous. So there was a war in heaven, and the
Opposer was cast down, then....there was a burning bush.

And that is how i see the evolution of middle eastern
monotheism.

With that, you see that you are, from the outside, worshipping
a tribal father god of the people of Abraham, who was the
Father that Jesus spoke of, BUT at the same time you
are worshipping Yahweh, but you cant see that because
when the Yahwehists of the Post-Axial age changed the
scriptures to reflect their god only, then you got the
more generic "God" with a capital G, who you worship.

But know that there are many gods, and several at
play in the OT. Jesus preached of one, and the
Gentiles heard, while Mohammed reached the
children of El and his worship resummed.

If you would like, we could talk of my own
faith, but I just wanted to touch how
all religions are true, in the worship of
either your adopted gods or blood gods,
and I used your own religions primal roots as
an account you could relate to, my myths would
be too alien to you.

 

That was awesome Heron...

 

Thanks man, you asked me to get in on it lol.

oh, btw, I added a little more there towards
the end, about the Opposer of the OT. Just so ya know.

 

Yeah I knew you had a lot of knowledge about the pre-christian times.

EDIT:I was going to ask about CHerokee but its off topic and Never mind, I asked my mom about the cherokee and she had a whole book on Cherokee beliefs and mythology.

and of course I would be intersted in learning your beliefs.

 

Well thanks again for the faith lol, glad you have the book.
Are you Cherokee?

My beliefs are a very core set, along with my own ancestry, and
the paleo Mother worship. But the basic foundation of my faith
is one found in all indeginous cultures, and largely represented
by Shinto in the "World Religions" scene.

I am an animist, of Celtic decent, so my animism involves my gods
and ancestors, where your animism would have your gods and ancestors,
but the belief would be the same. My best friend and I worship completly
different gods, of different ancestry, and still have the same religion.

Its a very universal concept.

Even, as i mentioned above, includes Christianity as a valid faith, in
that it is worshipping olds gods as well, but with different myths and
cultures, but basically, they just have a different god.

All the gods are real, just depends on who and how you worship.

I am always open to talk and answer questions, and if you
want to get into some of my "rantings" lol, go read in my
journal. If you are interested in Indo-Eurpean mytholical origins,
then i cover it in there. Start back in the later pages, and read forward.