Forget a Recession! A GREAT DEPRESSION is coming!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by skip, Jan 17, 2008.

  1. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Yes, once upon a time, banks lent money to people that they had ON DEPOSIT in savings accounts. But now, we are not encouraged to save, but to spend, and go further into debt!

    So there are no 'savings' in America anymore, ONLY DEBT!

    Most Americans have NO IDEA how WEAK that makes us economically. A weakness that is now becoming apparent to the rest of the world, as well as Americans.

    Pretty soon other countries will decide to exploit our weakness, just as the Saudis are doing now by refusing to pump more oil to keep prices high.

    Most of the world's countries still SAVE money, although that is quickly changing with credit card debt rising everywhere. But China is saving money and they will soon RULE along with the Arab Oil States.

    We will become THEIR SLAVES one day in the dramatic reversal of fortune that we are witnessing right now.

    All America's "Greatness" has disappeared save for our military, which we keep trying to cash in by invading other countries, but it just don't work no more...

    So by changing America from a savings country to an indebted one, we become slaves, when we were once FREE!
     
  2. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

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    It wasn't Clinton paying off the debt, it was Gingrinch and the Contract with America that paid off the debt. Clinton was just president, he didn't actually do anything but stand aside and let the republicans balance the budget. He was busy with Monica in the oval office, he couldn't be bothered.

    Much as Billy likes to harrangue Obama for giving Reagan his due, you Clintonites should give Gingrich and his republican troops their due and not seek false praises for things you didn't accomplish. Some of us still remember who was responsible.
     
  3. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

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    I think the only things Bill Clinton can really be fully credited with accomplishing were "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and we all know how popular that was and how effective it's been in protecting the lives and sensibilities of gays in the military.

    And he needs to be credited with pushing NAFTA through, and shortly thereafter having to bail out Mexico when it tanked economically. And it hasn't been very successful even to date. But NAFTA and the SPP, are something both republican, and democratic political heads have received funds and promises to promote.
     
  4. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

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    We no longer have a military worth being proud of, if we can only protect our dignitaries with the use of independent contractors...who is actually waging the war our children in uniform.... or Blackwater and ilk? Think about it. They make more than our soldiers, as consultants they tell our children how to perform their duties. We no longer have a military, only those that can afford to pay the consultants have a military, our children are merely fodder.

    Yet private contractors are not legally accountable to any world power. But our children are.
     
  5. gardener

    gardener Realistic Humanist

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    Wake up people, ask your candidates what's really important!
     
  6. Aristartle

    Aristartle Snow Falling on Cedars Lifetime Supporter

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    Well, it makes sense that declining house prices should be a drag on US consumers' wealth and spending for some time. When the weakness in US aggregate demand is concentrated in residential construction the impact on imports was actually relatively modest by the end of last year. Slowdowns in consumption and non-residential investment therefore will produce more substantial headwinds for the exports of other countries. Which is probably why the economists on my TV today are forecasting the slowest year for global growth since 2003.

    The projection for the United States is a low 1%. It's expected to remain at a low ebb for the first quarter of this year from what I see on TV.

    But people keep talking about there not being a foreseeable bottom. (Which has always been my own personal 'invisible box' when I have tried to understand macroeconomics.)

    From my understanding, there has been co-ordinated innovations in central bank market operations that have eased pressures in money markets and another round of write-downs and financial reports from major financial institutions that have not contained financial sector stress in the slightest. The pressures in many credit markets have continued to intensify. These factors finally caused global equity markets to crack over the last few weeks.

    Federal Reserve policymakers are expected to lower the funds rate and discount rate by another half-percent point next week, apparently. But even aggressive action now does not negate the possibility that deteriorating financial market conditions and tighter credit could open the path for an "appreciable" economic slowing. Improvement in USA inflation has stalled and thus complicating efforts to build consensus for countercyclical Fed policy. The big slow moving machine that the Fed is.

    The global economy still has many sources of resilience, as does the US economy.

    This current episode has begun to look like the more extreme credit/capital crunch period of the early 1990s, when even sharp declines in real rates were associated for a time with deteriorating financial conditions. I'm surprised that no one in this thread yet has made the comparison.

    Sure, the economy is likely to languish in the coming months, but a gradual improvement and efforts to ward off more serious downside risks should begin to sow the seeds of recovery.

    (Sorry, I still can't see a foreseeable bottom. Anyone willing to let me borrow your glasses? I'm all eyes.)
     
  7. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    Well, frankly, there is no way they could possibly stop the downward spiral of the dollar... even if they wanted to, which I know for a fact they don't. Cutting interest rates only makes the problem worse and is simply a quick and temporary fix. Every time the interest rates are cut, the value of the dollar sinks even more. Cutting interest rates will only work for so long, and it only serves to prolong this inevitable and eventual collapse. It doesn't serve to remedy anything. There have been some economists who have actually said it would be better to just let the markets crash now, rather than prolonging it, which will only result in a currency crisis one or two years down the road.
     
  8. Aristartle

    Aristartle Snow Falling on Cedars Lifetime Supporter

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    But... that doesn't make any sense to me. :s

    I don't mean to seem thick-witted, but how does it make any sense for the central banks or any economist to suggest crashing the markets now?

    Heh. I always feel like I'm missing the big picture when it comes to economics, and I don't want people to repeat themselves, but I still don't understand the notion.
     
  9. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    Here is what Clem Chambers of ADVFN wrote in this Forbes article:


    "In many ways, the best thing that could happen now would be a quick crash. A lot of professionals are praying for a so called "puke" because that would set a bottom for a recovery and signal that the worst is over. A short, sharp shock would be good for everyone. Recovery is better than sickening."

    David Lindorff of Counterpunch writes:

    "The Fed is in a trap. It cannot cut interest rates much more without causing a collapse in the dollar, which, because of the huge US trade imbalance, and all those consumer goods and raw materials--especially oil--that are imported--would lead to serious and politically dangerous inflation. And there is another constraint: with the current rate cut, the US now has the third lowest interest rates in the world. If the Fed makes another cut, as it has hinted it might in a week or so, only Japan would have a lower interest rate environment than the US. That makes the dollar a very undesirable currency for foreigner investors, which means they won't want to hold dollars, and they won't want to hold US stocks. Yet if the Fed doesn't cut interest rates even further, the stock market will continue to plunge, which again discourages foreign investors from pouring their money into the U.S., which in turn puts downward pressure on the dollar."

    "The Bush chickens--endless deficits as far as the eye can see, and a $2-trillion military debacle that has no end in sight and that is sucking money out of the country like a giant industrial vacuum cleaner--are coming home to roost."
     
  10. skip

    skip Founder Administrator

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    Yes, you're quite right there. I should've said our stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction still have value, but only if we shove them up some more "enemy" butt holes. Unfortunately I'm not allowed to say whose holes deserve one.
     
  11. Pepik

    Pepik Banned

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    Rat I'll ask you again. If low interest rates lead to the collapse of a currency, why hasn't the Yen collapsed? They've had near zero interest rates for a decade.

    Don't bother going to your conspiracy websites, they don't have the answer.
     
  12. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    LOL!

    Hmmm, let's see. Well, for one, the yen is actually strengthening in value against the dollar. Also, unlike the US, Japan still exports goods that people buy. What does the US export? The US is a consumer -- not a producer -- nation. Combine that with the low dollar and massive debt, and you're set for disaster.

    The yen actually benefits from being weak. Not the US dollar. Are you that dense you cannot see the differences between the American economy and the Japanese economy?
     
  13. guy

    guy Senior Member

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    this the most insightful and succinct explanation of what money actually is so far

    yes ....

    when you think about money, psychologically represents something of value, to hold something of value means happytimes, it is not seen as debt it is seen as credit.

    the real value of money is actually not so happy, the money you hold in your hands is actually the tangible manefestation of debt. its value is something borne of debt too.

    money is debt...

    but just because you have alot of money may not actually mean you have much debt personally, you hold in your hands other peoples debt plus your own debt/
     
  14. Pepik

    Pepik Banned

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    I was expecting something pretty sad but you've really outdone yourself.

    The reason the Yen isn't going down because of low interest rates is because its going up.

    Its no wonder you believe the "Fed" is private, you've never required your theories to make actual sense.
     
  15. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    The Fed is private, kind of like the earth is round. Or maybe you believe it's flat?
     
  16. floydianslip6

    floydianslip6 Senior Member

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    Not to get involved in another episode of Skip vs. Rat, but I feel it appropriate to point out that almost all the lending houses have fired their CEOs as a result of this crumble. However, on their way out the door they received several million dollars in severence pay, a "golden parachute" if you will, from what appears to be a crashing plane. But who knows. Last one I heard was the Country Wide CEO getting a $115 billion parachute when BOA came in and merged to bail em out.

    At the end of the day, unless you're uncle Cletus with your cash burried in jars THEY've got your cash. The stock may be falling to you the owner, and while the company is not able to sell off the stock to an increased value, they still have the money you dropped on the initial value. You're the only one losing money, not necessarily the company.

    Example: apple computer has had record sales the last quarter. And yet, the stock is down?

    As for the land people, I want my land too. But if the shit hits the fan nomadic lifestyle will be the only way to survive.
     
  17. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    The big boys at the top never never lose out. It's all a game to them. That's what most people who have swallowed the reality given to them by the media cannot grasp. Why would they care about writing off billions of dollars in loses when they are the ones printing the money in the first place? It's a massive con game. You either understand how the money system works or you don't. In the end, they come out and buy everything right back up. This is all about the consolidation of wealth and power into fewer and fewer hands. Money means NOTHING to these people. They are after control, and that control comes through their control over the economy.

    Do you seriously think people like David Rockefeller are losing out?
     
  18. Pepik

    Pepik Banned

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    And you have proved, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that you haven't got the faintest clue how the money system works.
     
  19. Pressed_Rat

    Pressed_Rat Do you even lift, bruh?

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    Coming from you, I take that as a compliment.
     
  20. evil i 13

    evil i 13 Senior Member

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    Hell it's all been said, I say it everyday The Fed is privately owned by international banking cartels, America fought for its independence only to be sold back to the Rothschilds of Britain, the cold war wasn't real, paper money means nothing, prepare for another depression, etc. And I've been screaming at the top of my lungs about the whole Deibold conspiracy as soon as the story broke about the owner saying he would do anything in his power to get Bush reelected at a banquet in Ohio more than 4 years ago. No one listens. put you're money in silver, gold, and/or the yen, that is if you have any left. Whatever came of the struggle for Lakota Sioux sovereignty BTW? seems like a nice place. I might move there. One system must fail for another to prevail.
     

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