Gay Cure MERGED

My bad, I was using it as an analogy, but it only works if you believe the one's sexuality is part of one's nature, rather than just one's day-to-day behaviour.

 

oh ok, thanks

 

I would've directly mentioned Michael Jackson, but I thought better of it. It's basically the idea that people seek drastic acts of self-modification as a cure for something which is only really a symptom of a larger, more psychological problem. If someone who is completely well-adjusted and in a sound state of mind wants to be de-gay-ified, fine. But if someone's in a state of mental anguish/depression, it's likely that they're looking for a quickfix to a problem which has more to do with their own self-perception than just a dysfunction sex drive.

 

I really think that the basic disagreement is on what actually causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, bisexuality, etc. So maybe keeping the arguments away from that would help. When some people believe that it's genetically pre-determined, and some people believe that it's a behavioral choice, then obviously a comparison to something like hair or eye color isn't going to make any worthwhile contribution to the discussion.

I do want to say that my earlier statement was out of anger, but I do not think it was "total idiocy." I also believe that the pressure of society is a force. No one made a distinction between that type of force and physical force. They ARE sticking their noses into other peoples' business. Just because they ask politely first, doesn't mean they aren't still being nosy. They are using their marketing budget to convince people that homosexuality is a horrid sin and Jesus can help set them free from it. The funny thing is, IF you believe in this, then you obviously didn't read your bible very closely, because Jesus already absolved us of our sins, all we have to do is repent. People sin every day. They are disrespectful, envious, dishonest, vengeful, and murderous. They steal, commit adultery, idolize "false" gods, and labor on the sabbath. Then according to christianity, they can ask for forgiveness, and be in the clear. Yet society can't seem to grasp that. They feel the need to intervene in so many situations. In some situations it's for the protection of others, such as theft and murder. But sometimes, it's simply out of cruelty, or maybe just ego. Whatever the reason, the interference is there one way or another.

People are beaten, harrassed, molested, raped, and murdered just for being gay. And for most people, it's a daily occurance. If this isn't forceful, I don't know what is. And Exodus and other organizations like it make these unfortunate people their prey. They wait until society has beaten them down (and you can bet that they are out there with metaphorical billy clubs, helping out like crazy) and then they tell them that Jesus can help rid them of their demons through anti-gay therapy. People who are so distraught, depressed, sometimes even suicidal because they can't find acceptance in their family, community, or elsewhere, turn to these ministries just to see if maybe they can wish or will it all away.

What I imagine is a society where people focused all of the same energy on acceptance, positive outreach, and love. Instead of making people believe that there is something wrong with them and then saying, "But we're good people and we can help you fix your flaws," they say, "There's nothing wrong with you. Do what feels right and makes you happy and I'll treat you the same either way." Then there is no need for ridiculous therapies. Can you imagine how many lives could be saved and how many unhappy people would be happy. There wouldn't be this huge run-around, people trying to change other people for their own sadistic purposes.

 

Total nonsense SC... repeatedly and over and over the overwhelming mentality and chorus is that anyone desiring homosexuality is thus a homosexual and it is the ideal and encouraged option that he/she must fulfil their identity.
In fact, the worst thing is to try and deny it.
Its not just a 'position' taken by the greater homosexual community but its the very underlying cause itself.

Even though we all know that Im right - I took the time to get some quotes and statements from various gay orgs and your right - not all feel the need to encourage homosexuality for anyone who wants it:
http://www.freetobeme.com/iti_gay.htm#confused
http://www.exodus.to/about_exodus.shtml
and the third one..
http://wiki.ehow.com/Admit-That-You-Are-Gay

Awesome!
For the record - how can you possibly say you wont encourage someone with homosexual urges to fulfill them?
Isnt that exactly what should be done to help them?

 

I'm really confused about that last post of yours Erasmus70. Are you trying to help his case? Because I looked at those links. The first one was in complete support of what SelfControl was saying. They encouraged the person to analyze the situation, try to figure out the reasons why they might feel this way, and not jump to any conclusions. They also encouraged them that it doesn't necessarily mean they are gay, that there are other reasons for attraction. And the last one was completely irrelevent. That was meant for someone who already KNEW they were gay and wanted help coming out to people they know.

Also, when you assume that everyone here would encourage someone in that state of confusion that they are gay and to admit it, not deny it is ludicrous. You can't lump us all together like that. Have you read some of the threads in this subforum at all? There are always going to be some people who convince others that if they get a tingle in their pants in the presence of a member of the same sex, they ARE gay. But most of the people participating in this conversation are not those people at all. PERSONALLY, I would give them advice similar to that offered on that first link you gave. Tell them that confusion does not mean you are gay. It means simply that you're confused or unsure.

I wonder how many people go to the Exodus Freedom Conference and instead of coming home "straight" they come home with a new gay/lesbian lover. Haha.

 

yeah you're right it don't makes u gay if you've got gay parents! i think the same but probably from another point of vue...
I think that if you grow in a family with gay parents you've got more probability to become gay yourself than others with hetero parents...

there's probably not a lot difference (who knows?) but it's what i think ...that there's gonna be a difference...

and for the genetic... i don't really think the same ... it's has the importance of dust... but maybe i'm wrong

i talk a few weeks back in my first post here that as strange as it may be ...past life can maybe explain something... and others things like ...a son with a gentle or understanding mother and with a father looser as maybe more probability to become gay himself...he don't find, he can't find the model in his father...his mirror...so he try another way...but it's just an exemple in others where men autority goes in the wrong way (it's just general i know that a lot of gay had 2 cool parents...all the stuff)

but i don't want to re-write all what i wrote before so 'bye

 

um.... i'm completely confused now erasmus, what exactly are you arguing?

i dont think people who've answered this thread are saying that exodus is 'bad' because they offer 'support' for making an informed decision. thats the point, they're not advocating 'informed personal decisions', they're advocating 'dont be homosexual', period.
its a narrow frame of mind and, incidentally, corresponds to the mentality of society at large.

 

That is pretty far from the point I was making. I won't argue that people here don't encourage others to try homosexuality, but no-one here has to my knowledge advised someone to jack in heterosexuality and never go back to it. It seems you're trying to over-simplify this; there may be the odd evangelical homosexual, but for the most part, no-one is seriously saying that heterosexuality is bad or unhealthy, and just to reiterate, encouraging someone to act on a homosexual urge is not the same as telling them to ditch their wife and kids and join the gay brigade.

If you can't see that then I don't really see the point in continuing this. If you can find a gay equivalent of the Erasmus project, then fine, but you're going to have to do better than a guide to coming out hosted by a site subtitled "The How-To Manual That Anyone Can Write or Edit". Learn the difference between a GayOrg and a blog.

Seriously man, I'm happy to discuss issues with you, but please don't insult my intelligence.


By the way, when you say:

...who is the "we" you're referring to?

 

The point on Erasmus70 links has been to well stated by others for me to say anything other than I agree. So much of it gets back to a simple slogans. "Leave people free to be whatever people be". It looked good on the sign and it works well in life too.

 

The links Erasmus70 provides to show the "gay" view point are insidious.

Free to Be Me is a right wing fundamentalist site pretending to be gay; it's run by New Direction for Life Ministries Inc, Toronto.

Exodus is a discredited right wing Ministry, not a gay group. They try to convert gay people and in the process do more harm than good. see Ex-Gay Watch.

wikiHow is an open forum like this one, which can easily be co-opted by anyone.


Erasmus70, your time would have been better spent actually looking for what GLBT organizations have to say. A good source on coming out is PFLAG.

Rather than generalizing about what "The greater homosexual community" might believe, or what the "overwhelming mentality and chorus is" we should frame our own arguments with facts, rather than frame them with the fact that "Some other people say the opposite of what I believe."

Come on folks, we need a higher level of discussion here.

 

What do you mean by 'Right Wing' and 'Fundamentalist'?
Im asking because im not entirely familiar with New Direction Ministries for Life.
How are they 'Fundamentalist'?

 

You just happened to pick out two religious groups at random and they just happen to both be seriously anti-gay groups? And you had absolutely no idea what they are up to?
Pa-leeez. Who are you kidding?

 

New Direction and Exodus are both right wing and fundamentalist. They are both conservative evangelical movements that are intolerent of outside views. They adhere strictly to fundamental principles based on their religion.

 

Conservative,
Evangelical,
Fundamentalist,
They are three different things. Evangelical and 'Fundamentalist' almost NEVER go together.
Basically you seem to be suggesting that ALL Christians are 'Fundamentalists'.
Except soft, liberal or uncommited ones who do not actually follow their Biblical principles or what?

Please stop applying 'Fundamentalist' to ANYthing and EVERYthing because already the word is nearly meaningless thanks to that.

 

Stop trying to make others change to be like you!
that is so symbolic of the promotion of a conservative, evangelical fundamentalist platform. Chill, live and let live. I know fundamentalist atheists, conservative as they come, and always evangelizing about the 'real' truth.
All those who think they know the truth, and others don't, and that they are within their rights to tell others they are wrong, and just won't let others live their own way, different as it may be, are all three.
And they seem to like to vote right wing for some reason.
I think it is more attractive in terms of potential economic benefits....

 

Please stop arguing semantics and answer the question that was originally asked of you.

 

Frankly I get pretty uncomfortable around the ex-gayers. I'm not talking about Erasmus here, but one time I knew this guy who kept trying to set me up with an ex-gay therapist. There is a certain creepiness about people like that. For starters, I could tell off the bat that this guy was in the closet. That's all he ever talked about: how he hooked up with guys in seedy bathroom stalls, and how sinful it is and how therefore nobody should ever be gay. I should note that he was still cruising for gay sex around the time when he was trying to get me to see the ex-gay therapist.

Ex-gay is basically a neologism for closet case.

Basically this guy suggested that I take a 4 hour trainride to the scottish highlands in order to go meet with some quack out in the middle of god-knows-where. It's laughable now, but when he originally tried to convince me, it was creepy.

 

All I have to say, Erasmus70, is learn how to use a dictionary. Fundamentalist, conservative, and evangelical can quite easily go hand in hand. They certainly do not ALWAYS go together, but relating to the topic we are discussing, they do. New Direction, Exodus, etc. Describing them as fundamentalist, conservative, and evangelical is a pretty accurate description. Nice attempt at misdirecting the discussion though

 

Its not misdirecting.
Im an Evangelical Christian who is well aware of what 'Fundamentalist' most recent popular meaning was.
You are using the Internet Culture definition which includes pretty much any and all Christians.
You do this to be devisive and probably to insult me as well.
YOU brought this up - Not me.