Gay Marriage

I did respond to you, in effect, when you asked "What does that matter?" in regards to Brittney Spears 55 hour wedding.

If people wanted a true "Defense of Marriage," they would fight these senarios that are currently damaging marriage, and not future, potential threats.

 

Obviously, feel free to bow out of the debate whenever, but, in my opinion, it is people like you who are much more important to the argument than people like me. People will quickly dismiss my argument "because I am gay." Also, I have enjoyed insight provided by your posts.

There is absolutely nothing offensive about the term "gay" (that is, in itself, when not connected to a negative connotation). I prefer the term "queer" to "gay" or "homosexual," because sexuality occupies more than just the sex of the individuals involved. That being said, gay is fine. Like Self Control, I don't mind the term "faggot" either (at least, in most context) but I would not recommend its use.

 

I tried to discuss this with you before. Obviously, I just don't get it...

 

Oh I was just trying to be funny. You had a number of responses in a row. If you had heard the tone that I would have used had we been in a face to face conversation perhaps it might have actually been funny.

 

Wow, a 6-sexual, I don't think that has even been defined.

Mollyredmore -- if you are an "autosexual," I will fight for your right to marry your beloved vehicle, even though I find exhaust system sex unnatural and disgusting. I wish you two all the luck and happiness in the world.

How can you reasonably compare homosexuality with beastialty, diety-love, "audiosexuality," or "autosexuality?" That, sir, in my opinion, is ignorant, and insane...

 

That is what I said...

You CAN seek treatment for disturbance related to sexuality.

You CANT seek treatment for sexuality, itself.

Someone with homosexual behavior who does not want to be homosexual should be treated. They either need assistance comming to terms with their own sexuality, or they are not truly homosexual, at least not necessarily, and have a very deep and complex pathology. (for example, see Silence of the Lambs)

 

It's as insane for a man to fall in love with a man as it is for a woman to do the same.

 

To illustrateÊ just how wacky the "science" is that's backing the ex-gay proponents, these are a few of the things that they say causes people to turn out gay:
Masturbation
Pornography
Spousal abuse in the home
Effects of the media/culture
Parental adultery
Moral relativism
Seduction by peers
Nearsightedness
Hearing loss
Chemical imbalances
Parents parading nude around the house
Poor hand-eye coordination
Generational curse
Intrauterine trauma - "If the mother was experiencing difficulty in her relationships with her husband while carrying the child or if she felt rejected, unloved, or unwanted by him or she experienced any other painful feelings during pregnancy."

 

And these are a few of the ways the ex-gay experts "cure" gay people and make them heterosexual:
Men should play sports
Men practice going fishing, women practice putting on make-up
Men are taught to sit the right way, no crossed legs
Men are taught not to stand with their hand on their hip
Take away a man's Calvin Klein clothes and Barbra Streisand records
Men should avoid extreme sarcastic behavior
Men should wear short business-like haircuts
Show a gay man photos of nude men while placing rotted hamburger meat under his nose - he will then associated repulsion with same-sex attraction
The laying of hands on a gay man in front of the assembled church congregation
Reading a specific prayer over your gay child to list his "generational curse"
Forcibly abduct gay teens in their sleep, handcuff them, and send them to military boot camps where they are forced to march 20 miles a day with weights on their backs (this is a true, and horrible, story).

 

I think this is a semantic confusion: I, as a homosexual, can seek treatment for my sexuality. However, the treatment a) may not be found, and b) is unlikely to work. This is possibly where the dispute has come from.

A lot of people aren't comfortable with their sexuality, and it is neither of our places to say that they shouldn't be allowed to do that if that's what they want.

 

Finally, this is what the real scientific experts say, dispelling the myth that science can "cure" a gay person and make them heterosexual:
AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC ASSOCIATIONÊ
á "The potential risks of 'reparative therapy' are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone "reparative therapy" relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed ... the APA opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as 'reparative' or 'conversion' therapy which is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based on a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual orientation.
á "There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation. It is not described in the scientific literature, nor is it mentioned in the APA's latest comprehensive Task Force Report, Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (1989).
á "Clinical experience suggests that any person who seeks conversion therapy may be doing so because of social bias that has resulted in internalized homophobia, and that gay men and lesbians who have accepted their sexual orientation positively are better adjusted than those who have not done so."
AMERICAN PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION
á "Even though homosexual orientation is not a mental illness and there is no scientific reason to attempt conversion of lesbians or gays to heterosexual orientation, some individuals may seek to change their sexual orientation or that of another individual (for example, parents seeking therapy for their child). Some therapists who undertake this kind of therapy report that they have changed their clients' sexual orientation (from homosexual to heterosexual) in treatment. Close scrutiny of their reports indicates several factors that cast doubt: Many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective on sexual orientation, rather than from mental health researchers; the treatments and their outcomes are poorly documented; and the length of time that clients are followed up on after treatment is too short.
á "In 1990, the American Psychological Association stated that scientific evidence does not show that conversion therapy works and that it can do more harm than good. Changing one's sexual orientation is not simply a matter of changing one's sexual behavior. It would require altering one's emotional, romantic and sexual feelings and restructuring one's self-concept and social identity.
AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
á "Most of the emotional disturbance experienced by gay men and lesbians around their sexual identity is not based on physiological causes but rather is due more to a sense of alienation in an unaccepting environment. For this reason, aversion therapy (a behavioral or medical intervention which pairs unwanted behavior, in this case, homosexual behavior, with unpleasant sensations or aversive consequences) is no longer recommended for gay men and lesbians. Through psychotherapy, gay men and lesbians can become comfortable with their sexual orientation and understand the societal response to it."
AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS
á "The psychosocial problems of gay and lesbian adolescents are primarily the result of societal stigma, hostility, hatred and isolation. The gravity of these stresses is underscored by current data that document that gay youths account for up to 30 percent of all completed adolescent suicides. Approximately 30 percent of a surveyed group of gay and bisexual males have attempted suicide at least once. Adolescents struggling with issues of sexual preference should be reassured that they will gradually form their own identity and that there is no need for premature labeling of one's sexual orientation."Ê

I highly doubt that a hidden gay agenda or gay politics have hidden the facts from the literally thousands of researchers working for these four organizations. Even if such agenda, politics, or conspiracy exist, the suggestion that they could alter so many scientific findings, studies, and publications is highly suspect.

 

Here we see illustrated the fine line between "would be funny if it wasn't so tragic", and just plain fucking funny.

 

Agreed, they can seek such treatment. No professional, however, should be offering such treatment until scientific evidence supports its safety and efficacy. That being said, if someone seeks out unfounded treatment and is aware that such treatment is not sanctioned by any professional organization, more power to them. I am all for INFORMED individual choices.

 

Oh, my apologies. I no longer have the internet at home, so when it is available, I have to do a "response marathon"...

 

EXACTLY!

 

I figured that was what you meant, but what you said could've been read as "you cannot look for a cure for your sexuality", implying that one shouldn't be allowed to seek it out. I'm all for personal liberty on this one, I know no-one has the right to be stupid, but it's not like half the stuff your GP (HMO if you're Amerkin) says isn't guesswork.

I mean, science hasn't proved the accuracy of alternative therapies beyond what one would expect from a placebo effect, but that doesn't mean we should ban them. If it's what people want for themselves (I stress for themselves, I don't think anyone should be referred for something like this) then they're completely entitled to it.

 

Someone asked me if I thought Lesbianism was the same, similar or like Homosexuality.

Lately most examples I see of Lesbianism is the kind which is deliberately 'Posed' for the purpose of enticing or increasing the sexual titilation of young males.

Otherwise, the lesbians Im familiar with are usually choosing to do so for sociological reasons.

For whatever reason, I almost never meet the 'classic Man-hating' feminist Lesbianism anymore.
and really.. I spend a lot of time at the college and I cant think of any Femininst Dykes??

I can definately see some parallels between Lesbianism and Homosexuality - but I definately dont see 'Mirrored' situations there.

 

Why do you think they are different, when at the base level - of fucking within one's own gender - they are so similar?

And what do you mean by "sociological reasons"?

 

Lesbianism seems to be a valid alternative to being single for some women.
In other words, sexuality being a side-issue or an issue that 'Comes with' the choice.

With the men - it seems to me it primarily sex driven.
Sex IS the primary reason for Homosexuality.

This is generalising of course - but that its a general question we are bouncing around.

 

I think you've seriously misjudged the situation. i think homosexual men are only as sex-driven as your average heterosexual male would be, given liberty from the societal constraints of marriage and offspring. This isn't something I'm particularly happy about, but I do fear that the genie cannot be put back in the bottle; that the promiscuous sub-culture that has grown up over the 70s and 80s is unlikely to be subdued by the offer of conjugal rights. Its a shame, because from my experiences on the gay scene, most people there do seem to feel trapped and unhappy by the situation, but feel powerless to change it and fear living alone if they leave it. There are, however, a great number of homos who avoid the scene like the plague, do not habitually philander, and who are capable of holding down a stable relationship. The reason you don't hear about them is because the media finds the mincing weirdos who man the Gay Pride rallies more interesting.

Similarly, I think lesbians are different from male homos in the same way that straight women are different from straight men; women traditionally are less bothered about sex, and more concerned with security. If you double the number of women in a relationship, then security is likely to become the main concern. This is what I've found with a lot of lesbian couples that I've met; they become domesticated faster than they are comfortable with, and rarely stay together long.

But really, I don't think there is any more difference between homos and heteros than there is between men and women. I doubt I'm going to change your opinion on that though.