god doesn't want us to believe in god

Nice post and very plausible to me indeed. I strongly believe God couldn't care less about our feeble projections onto Him. Why would It? IF God would observe us (I doubt it) It's probably enjoying everything he sees. Wars in his name? Good? Evil? All our inventions, not the problem of our creator I believe.

 

The vibrations cause tremors. We had an earthquake of 5.6 magnitude in Oklahoma on Nov. 5, 2011 at 10:53 p.m.--exactly the time my partner and I reached climax.

 

Thanks for the replies, I'm glad that some of you like the argument. I'm wondering though if anyone has a counter argument (even if only to play devil's advocate, well I guess god's advocate in this case), or could otherwise attack one of the premises. I would like to strengthen the argument if possible. I consider philosophy a hobby, and I would like to improve if possible.

 

Reason is one faculty. Another is faith and the ability for spritual experiences that are difficult to explain with reason alone.

Another is a sense that there is something more or completely beyond our understanding.

My argument would be that God gives us more than just the ability to reason.

 

Here is a good philosophical poem written by a philosopher in classical Greece.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

-Epicurus

Omnipotent(All-Powerful)

 

Two words: free-will

 

Because God is the creator :2thumbsup:

 

Just for the sake of potential argument then, seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened to you. What if god were entirely capable and opulent in fulfilling your every request, that is giving you a world that you insist must be so. The apparent lack of perceived continuity between what you think you desire and what occurs, is accounted for by fundamentally uneven desires. We want one thing one moment and another thing the very next.

Contrary to the premise that god does not want to be known, we are hard wired to seek our good or our god. We constantly reach for the next good thing.

 

Even if free will exists it does not provide an answer to the Epicurean argument. When a being is capable of preventing evil and does not do so, then that being becomes evil regardless of the motive (except perhaps if the first evil will prevent a larger evil, but that's another argument altogether).

Also there is the question of the extent of evil in the world. Allowing people to go through trials is one thing, but the holocaust is quite another.

Also there are cases where one person's evil actions deny the free will of another person, namely the victim of the evil actions. If a man is attempting to rape a woman, and the woman is trying to escape, then if god does not prevent the rape he has decided that the free will of the man is more important than the free will of the victim. Seeing as though no matter what the outcome is one person will have their free will come to fruition and the other will not, then why not come to the aid of the victim then? There is the same amount of free will being allowed in either case.

Also what gives god the right to force us into a world where the free actions of others can cause us so much suffering? If we had chosen to be here it would be a different story.

For me it is a moot point however, because I neither believe in any gods or free will.

 

Good and evil have nothing to do with the creator of the universe but more so with our interpretation of things. Just like our interpretation of things caused the idea of an intervening god.

 

The larger evil would be the elimination of free-will.

Yes, the holocaust was absolutely horrible. I don't want to lesson how bad that was. All I would say is we don't know how that will effect the future nor do we have complete knowledge of it.

"The only real wisdom is knowing you know nothing" Socrates
WE ARE LIMITED.

No one has to have absolute free-will. It's possible that God's will and multiple free-wills can exist at the same time. The only reason they would seem to conflict is because we can't see how everthing fits together (I know that can seem cold and twisted in a way). Anything can seem terrible if it's taken insolation. Imagine looking at a doctor operating on a patient without knowing why he was doing it or what the outcome might be.

Umm....he's God? All I would say is we don't know everything. The suffering seems terrible but at the same time we don't know the end result. If some suffering leads to more good in the long run than that can be considered overall good.

To me not believing in a high power or intellect puts limits on what is possible.

And for free will. Two words: quantum mechanics.

 

In not having to believe in God, or wanting to, can be found the knowledge that the will is always free. Is 'determinism' the confusion of causality with infinity? Or just a profound self-forgetfulness? lol

No-one knows nothing. Socrates himself was survived by his dialectic!

 

precisely.

not only does nothing have to be known or imagined in order to exist, it doesn't have to have anything to do with anything either.

as lao tsu also made a point of pointing out.

 

My opinion is that man is god and god is man, an idealogical means i.e. a civilised society is god itself, for if there was an actual holy being, we could not perceive it nor could we appreciate it being a supposed lesser being. There is no greater creation that the world inside your mind and no greater existence than sharing it with another minds. Live your life freely not from a script

 

We don't need to perceive it. It would not be believing anymore that way anyway.

 

belief is social , knowing is lonesome
and this , exactly this , be a social message .

 

Asmodean:

Seeing is not believing?!


tikoo:

A knowing one for all that.

We beggar no belief in loving messages alone.

 

Depends on what you believe you see

But I ment of course: knowing is not believing.

 

believe in what your heart tells you to believe in my friend.

 

Is that advise for god or are you going offtopic?