Gun ban solution to mass murders?

It seems to me Americans have the ability to buy guns fairly casually, want a gun, and then go get one.
I think that is the driving factor in the majority of cases.
Although I think Balbus is creating a narrative where everybody is petrified, standing behind their doors and ready to shoot to kill -
I doubt that is the driving motivation for the majority of people.
It definitely is for some, though - no doubt.
It obviously depends upon where you live and/or your personal temperament.
Where is the majority of gun crimes perpetuated? - In leafy suburbia or inner city deprived areas?
Where is the majority of gun related suicides? - In leafy suburbia or inner city deprived areas?
Siq, do you not think if gangs are riding around, and there is high crime - people are going to get a gun to protect themselves because they are fearful?
In those types of areas they have to accept the threat of violence and intimidation, don't they?
There are also, obviously, people that create a threat of violence and intimidation.
The trouble is, regardless of personnel circumstances and the level of security/stability within any community - people think nothing of getting a gun 'just in case'.
There is absolutely nothing anybody can say to convince people living in safe communities there is no need to have a gun for protection - because they have the perfect 'excuse', they can, and are almost willed into doing so because of the second amendment..
There is risk, there isn't risk' there are reasons for and reasons against.
I agree, The problem is that such attitudes can build up an irrational barrier between reality and myth, between what people see as prudent and sensible and what actually is prudent and sensible.
In the UK we have similar issues, but a lack of being able to deal with such issues with freely available guns.
The result: less gun crime.
America is definitely a gun-orientated culture - no question.
Siq, seems the type of person who likes guns, wants a gun, can get a gun, and buys a gun - the end.
Which is the case with the majority of people, imho.
Balbus, look where and who carries out the majority of gun related murders.
Also, the alarming amounts of suicides with guns.
Siq, you do have to wonder why there is so much firearm related murders in the US - even from the luxury of being as safe as I am here.

Do you think people that have guns 'just in case' keep them in a safe? what would be the point? If they do, they probably should question why they have one in the first place.

 

I am telling you you are wrong because, having done the same sorts of things, nothing I have seen or experienced living in the US points to a "culture of fear". No one I know walks around looking over their shoulders, so-to-speak.

There are certainly some who think in those terms, yes. But on the flip side, in my experience, there are at least an equal number who don't such as myself. I don't fear an attack on myself. I don't fear my home being broken into. I don't fear a revolution. I know the odds of any of those things happening to me are very remote.

I have no idea what form a future American revolution may take. All I do know is that, odds are, its going to be messy no matter the form it takes.

I say again, fear never once entered into the equation when I purchased my firearms.

 

Certainly. I never said fear can't be a motivating factor. I just think Balbus is being intellectually dishonest by trying to apply fear in those situations to our culture as a whole. America is a nation of over 300 million people with cultural differences spanning race, ethnicity, and regional origin.

Pretty much what it comes down to.

I don't really wonder. IIRC, the majority of firearm related murders are committed by thugs who were engaged in criminal activity to begin with, and are often times committed against those of a similar disposition.

I own two safes; a large one for my long arms (rifles, shotguns) and a pistol safe for my, you guessed it, pistol. Both may be accessed by either entering a pin on the key pad or by a fingerprint scan.

 

Perhaps.
It definitely does not suite his argument to mention anything otherwise.
How do you argue against a majority that just want to own gun, and can?
It's bizarre that he mentions ways for people to do so.

I thought so.

IIRC, that is true. People from certain ethnic persuasions between the ages of 18-25.
Is anybody here or in government discussing how to try and prevent that?

So you don't have one readily available just in case of an intruder - say, under your pillow or in your bedside cabinet?

 

You can't, IMO. In my experience the next "logical" step is to go down the compensation route. For many, the reason for someone wanting to own a firearm can never be a simple or straight forward one.

Some are. The problem is that race gets involved and that is a tricky, tricky subject that many just don't want to get dragged into.

The pistol safe is beside my bed and within arms reach. That said, no, I don't have one out in the open, so-to-speak.

 

Sig

And yet you have several ‘just in case’ guns.

Yes yourself who has several ‘just in case’ guns.

And yet you still think of several of you guns in terms of ‘just in case’.

And because you fear that messiness you have several ‘just in case’ guns.

Except you think of several of them as ‘just in case’ guns, just in case the thinks you fear may happen, happen.

 

Sig

I’ve often said that I’ve got nothing against the law abiding and responsible owning a gun, but that doesn’t mean I’m against gun control measures because the flip side of that view is that I’m against the criminal minded and irresponsible gaining access to firearms of any kind. And large numbers of unsecured guns means a lot of guns end up in criminal hands.

I also have worries about why people would want a gun, if it is about personal defence as explained it is about fear and intimidation and that is not a good basis for dealing with socio-economic problems.

I grew up in the countryside around people that owed guns for keeping down vermin and hunting. I was also a member of a gun club and was a fair shot, but I grew out of it.

Thing is that it is possible to get a gun in the UK, many people have shot guns and if you are law abiding and seem responsible it is possible to get a license. It is just that most people don’t feel the necessity to have a gun. I mean what would I do with a gun in the city? Hunting, I’d rather preserve the wildlife we have, rather than shoot it. Keeping down vermin, I think calling a professional exterminator would be more efficient and less time consuming than sitting out on my porch in the hope a rat will show up (say nothing from the flak from my neighbours). As to home defence, well, as I’ve said there just doesn’t seem to be the US pro-gunner’s level of fear about that here.

 

Sig

You need to read what I have said not what you think i've said

 

I've said this before, and I'll say it again now, then be done with you: Being prepared is not the same as being afraid. I do not fear being robbed. I do not fear being attacked. I do not fear a revolution coming to my doorstep.

 

How and why do you think that would work?

Perhaps less energy should be used up on such people.

I know I said 'ethnic persuasion' - but it does not have to be about race per se.
It just has to be about ways of preventing it - reconciliation, family, mentors and role-models, perhaps.
To be fair, investigating this issue I have read of groups/organisations speaking about it, and trying their best to help the situation.
It does not help that such projects take time and money.

Fair enough.

 

This is what I keep reading -

What about people who just want to own a gun and can?

If you have mentioned people that are not in fear - please highlight that/quote that part.

 

It wouldn't work. I was just saying that many of the people like Balbus I have met tend to move to that idea next, regardless of it being bogus. I am sorry, I should have been more clear.

No argument there.

Race/ethnicity is still a very, very touchy subject here in the US. There are a lot of loud voices leading groups of ignorant people that cry "racism" if one ever tries to focus efforts on a single racial/ethnic group. NGOs get away with it because, well, they are NGOs. Get the government involved? Shit gets messy. There is no easy fix.

 

Sig

And yet you have several ‘just in case’ guns, I mean why be prepared with lethal weapons for something you don’t fear could happen? It would be like having shark repellent and an underwater harpoon while living in the Sahara desert just in case.

 

Oh hell

To repeat please read what I say not what you think I’ve said - As to home defence, well, as I’ve said there just doesn’t seem to be the US pro-gunner’s level of fear about that here.

I’ve often said that I’ve got nothing against the law abiding and responsible owning a gun

 

: / - Yeah, I agree.
Even here most gun crime is perpetuated by the same types of people.
It seems to be a reflection of the way they see their counterparts in the US.
It's so frustrating when I hear on both sides of the Atlantic: This is gang life. I gotta shoot him before he shoots me.

When you have multiple sides and always one side prepared to use violence - it's a never ending cycle of violence.

 

Agreed. One of the main things that can be done to I think break that cycle is to legalize most, if not all, illicit drugs. A lot of these thugs main income is from the drug trade. Take that away and you'll take away a lot of their power.

Then again, it may backfire. Take away their main source of income and they may just find another way to make their money instead of just fading away. Maybe a more violent way.

 

Balbus

How about this: why do people have spare tyres in their cars? Because they fear at any point they may get a flat tyre? Do people grip the steering wheel in fear, and travel cautiously in case of a flat tyre? Or carry out their daily business free in the knowledge it is unlikely to occur, but have a sense of security they have one 'just in case'. I might not agree with that in relation to guns, but can see some peoples logic.

Which, Siq, seems to be - but you seemed to have decided to label him a pro-gunner with a certain level of fear.

 

Sig

It is highly unlikely the U.S would legalise any other illicit drug other than marijuana.
If they fully legalised marijuana that might reduce the tensions slightly.
But isn't most of the tensions due to who you are, where you are from, who you are with and who you do and don't get along with?
Which, to me, seems to be about creating an identity for yourself, and basically filling your day with activity other than working.
Wouldn't stopping a reliance on drugs and alcohol go a long way to calm everybody down?
It all seems rather childish to me, and behaviour people should have stopped when they were about 12-14.
Help people find jobs or training, and basically give them their own identity away from the crowd.


I've not found one interview where a gang member has said:
This is really boring, I really don't care for this life anymore.
I'm going to try and better my life.

It does happen, obviously, but it seems rare.
It seems you have to get them before they reach their teenage years.

 

I completely agree, Odon. Still, it is all so much easier said than done. How to go about it? Who will pay for it? Honestly, there is no one right answer to either of those questions. I believe it goes beyond helping these people create a new identity. It has been said, for example, that you can take someone out of the ghetto, but you can't take the ghetto out of them. This is going to sound harsh but what we need to discuss is to how best eradicate "ghetto" culture.

 

It isn't harsh, it's the right thing to do.
Atleast channel the energy in a more positive way.
I was watching something the other day about people that are into Harry pooter or Dr Who etc.
They used that kinship to discuss other matters relating to their own community and the wider world.
I don't mean be part of Jesus' gang or play basketball every other week or anything like that.
I just mean use gang identity to bring people together in a more positive way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7J47vqmiHhM"]The Stream - The power of pop culture - YouTube


But they do need work and a more stable life - it's boring, but needed.