hare krishna

I have to admit that at this time, in spite of my daily association with Bhaktivedanta, I was not happy with the Hare Krishna’s, in fact I was downright miserable. My wife did nothing but fight with me, the leaders were all in my opinion quite insane, and the entire atmosphere was as stressful as it had ever been. I had an organic candy business making Bhakti, Shakti and Bliss bars, and was tripping around selling to various health food stores, when I ran into an old devotee I knew from Laguna Beach who had traveled to India with Bhaktivedanta, but had become disillusioned and had left the movement, so I started hanging out with him and smoking hash just to get a bit of relief. Om Shiva. Bhaktivedanta traveled for a few weeks and then returned to LA. It was during his absence that I started hanging with my friend and smoking hash, and of course my straight laced wife finds out about it and go and tells the then GBC and temple president Karandar, who when they return, then goes and tells Nanda Kumar who then goes and tells Bhaktivedanta. I’d gone to a rather strange headspace during this time, and not just from smoking hash. I was chanting over 100 rounds a day, sleeping a few hours each night and was wearing a saffron dhoti tied like a sanyassi dhoti rather than my white house holder dhoti. Bhaktivedanta called me to his room, took one look at me and said, “What are you doing?” I said I was chanting over 100 rounds a day and wanted to be a sanyassi and live in Vrindaban. I don’t get along with my wife, no one here understands me and I don’t get along with the temple authorities. He laughed and said I’ll tell you when its time for you to go to Vrindaban. He then said so I hear you’ve been smoking hash hish? And I said yes. And he said best not to as no one will understand what I am doing, but he didn’t take it at all seriously. Said I should dress normally and be a house holder and set a good example and come back and do his massages while he was there, so I did.

In the fall of 72, he was returning to India, and Nanda Kumar had left being his personal servant, so I asked if I could travel to India with him as his personal servant. It was fine with him but got axed by the then temple president Karandar who said it would not set a good example since I was a householder. As fate would have it, the next day I was visiting my friend Jayatirtha who was at that time running the Spiritual Sky incense business, and on his desk was a letter from the devotee who was the Spiritual Sky guy in India, requesting that a house holder devotee be sent to India to help him with the business. So, that morning during the massage, I told Bhaktivedanta about the letter and asked since I had wanted to go to India anyway and we had just talked about it, would it be all right with him if I was the one who went to India to help with the Spiritual Sky business, and he said that would be fine. Now, with my recent hash hish episode, I was probably not exactly the devotee that Jayatirtha, in spite of us being friends, would have recommended to be the one to go to India, but since Bhaktivedanta had given me his permission there was nothing he could do, so off I went to India with the wife and the two one year old twin daughters. Yes, I’m going to be a good devotee. I’m going to follow the straight and narrow. So I get to India and meet the two devotees who are running Spiritual Sky there, I’ll call them M and K, and the first thing they say to me is, “Kanupriya, are we glad to see you! Jayatirtha wrote us this letter that Prabhupada had given his permission for you to come, but you’d been smoking hash and he wanted to send this really straight laced devotee from New York instead. So we wrote him back and said he should not go outside of the directions of the Spiritual Master, and that the good association of India would fix Kanupriya up.” And the first place they took me to in Calcutta was their black market hash dealer, and K was shooting morphine! Anyway, this whole situation didn’t work out all that well, although I did spend a couple of weeks with Bhaktivedanta in Vrindaban and about six months in India, but the entire ISKCON scene and atmosphere was the same as in the states, so I decided to return to LA. I spent a week in Vrindaban before I left and this is where I decided to leave the Hare Krishna’s. I was shopping at a little outdoor market and nearby me was an American hippy guy dressed in orange robes wearing a mala, so I started up a conversation, but he was very wary of speaking with me. Turned out he was a disciple of Ramana Maharishi, but we had a nice talk and after a few minutes he said to me, “You know, you’re the only nice Hare Krishna I’ve ever met. Every single other Hare Krishna I’ve met, and I’ve met a lot of them here, immediately starts yelling at me and telling me I’m following a false guru and I’ll probably go to hell!” And I said, “Brother, I know where you’re coming from. I’m about one of the only nice Hare Krishna’s I’ve ever met either!” And I returned to LA in Mar of 73, and the true believer wife lived at the temple, and I went and lived with my friend in Topanga and smoked hash and let my hair grow long and began my serious studies of Vedic astrology. There’s only one episode I want to relate from this period that has something to do with the conversation with Bhaktivedanta that’s being discussed on this site, and you’ll see the relevance of it once we get to the actual conversation. One day I was sitting and thinking that since I had now left the organization and was no longer following the principles, that if it was true (which I really didn’t know if it was or not but this was the standard line) that by being initiated I was somehow karmically linked with the guru, who was from then on forever after responsible for me, and that the guru would have to suffer for my karmas if I didn’t follow the principles, that in all integrity I should renounce my formal discipleship, since I certainly did not want Bhaktivedanta to have to suffer on my behalf. And supposedly the karmic link goes both ways, so that if I were a formal disciple, in all integrity I would also be responsible for the guru’s karma, which as far as I could see was ISKCON and everything it involved, which meant that I would have to spend my life trying to straighten out that mess, even more reason to renounce my formal initiation, so I did. As of the Spring of 73 I no longer considered myself to be an initiated disciple of Bhaktivedanta and stopped using the name Kanupriya.

I spent the remainder of that year primarily studying astrology, and in early 74 Jamadagni came from Hawaii and we studied together till he went back to Hawaii in the fall of 74. I stayed in LA and he returned to LA in the Spring of 75. It was during his time in Hawaii that the whole episode occurred that led to our conversation with Bhaktivedanta. To tell you the truth, I really don’t know the whole story of what happened in Hawaii, was never really all that interested, so if you want the details you’ll have to get them from Jamadagni. I remember Jamadagni told me a bit of it, something about his helping the then temple president, his friend Sudam, set up the legalities in such a way that the temple was no longer under the authority of ISKCON, which caused quite a ruckus and Jamadagni was labeled as a demon and bore the brunt of the whole thing, which apparently he didn’t appreciate very much, whereas I just said “Wad’ya expect?”, but then he was always a much more sincere crusader rabbit than I ever was, and this is what he wanted to go and talk with Bhaktivedanta about, which finally brings us to June of 75 and our infamous conversation.

 

The meeting with Bhaktivedanta was arranged at the request of Jamadagni by a mutual devotee friend who at the time was named Rebatinandan Swami. I personally had no particular interest or desire in seeing Bhaktivedanta as I had no particular issues to resolve, and I already had many pleasant memories of the times I spent with him, but I wasn’t opposed to seeing him either, so when I was invited to attend the meeting, I went. I had left the organization two years earlier, and during that time I had let my hair grow back so it was quite long, and I had a beard as well. Jamadagni’s hair had grown a bit long too at that time, but not like mine. At the meeting was only Bhaktivedanta, Jamadagni, me, Jayatirtha and Satsvarupa. Upendra, who was Bhaktivedanta’s personal servant at the time, was around but in another room.

First I’m going to tell you about the conversation at the beginning between me and Bhaktivedanta that’s not posted here that set the scene for the rest of the conversation, and my interpretation of what it meant. Then I’ll go into the rest of it, which is mostly all the stuff that Jamadagni was trying to resolve. Then I’m going to just give you a few quotes from Bhaktivedanta from the conversation, and show you all the truths he ended up telling as a result of my initial question, cause like I said, he always told me the truth. I read a rather long posting here on this site by dirty hari, who did a pretty good analysis of what happened before and during the conversation, suggesting that Bhaktivedanta was probably told beforehand a lot of not so nice things about Jamadagni, and that is probably why he appears to be so hostile to Jamadagni, and to me too I guess. I’d tend to agree with his evaluation as well as most of his interpretation of the events,. I’m sure you’ll probably have a few questions about all of this which I’ll be happy to respond to. And thus we begin with the part of the conversation that is not on the posted transcript.

When Jamadagni and I walked into the room, Jayatirtha said, “Prabhupada, these are your two disciples Jamadagni and Kanupriya.” Bhaktivedanta didn’t know Jamadagni, but as you know he did know me, so he looked at me and said, “You cannot be my disciple if you are keeping such long hairs.” Well, you know me by now, and I knew this was being recorded and would go down to posterity, and I figured there must be some reason I’m here and going through this, and he’d set himself up with an opportunity for me to have him tell the truth about things, and as you know he always told me the truth, so even though I already knew the answer to this question, I said, “Prabhupada, does that mean I can’t be Krishna conscious and return to the Spiritual Sky?” And he said, “Of course not! Krishna doesn’t care if you have long hair! Disciple means one who follows the discipline. I wanted people to be recognized as Hare Krishna people, so to be a disciple means to keep shaved head with sika and tilok.” So I said, “But Prabhupada, the philosophy as all the devotees tell everyone it is that in order to become Krishna conscious and return to the Spiritual Sky you have to be initiated.” And he said, “That is the standard. I have only set up the standard for those who can follow the standard. If you are above the standard or below the standard you do not need to follow the standard. It is not as if the entire world has to become my disciples!” I said, “Thank-you Prabhupada. You never explained it this way before.”

I hope you can see the meaning of all this, especially if you will recall the story I told you about when I renounced my formal initiation, regarding that how initiation is presented is that it means this eternal karmic bond between the guru and the disciple, because what Bhaktivedanta just said is that this entire conception of what initiation really means is a fairy tale! As is the necessity of even being initiated in the first place! As is the necessity of following any of the slavery rules of the Hindu Caste System, also known as Varnashram Dharma or the so-called Vedic Culture. And trying to lead the life of this fairy tale and a whole bunch of other fairy tales was and is the cause of all the complications in Hare Krishna Land.

There is not a single person who ever joined the Hare Krishna’s because they woke up one morning and said to themselves, “You know! I suddenly have this burning desire to devote my life to spreading the Hindu Caste System all over the world in the name of spirituality! I think I’ll join the Hare Krishna’s and pretend I’m a Hindu Brahmin from 5,000 years ago!” Every single person who came to the Hare Krishna’s did so because they were seeking their own spiritual enlightenment, and for no other reason, and were erroneously told that they had to adopt the rules and lifestyle of a particular obscure caste of Hindu Brahmins in order to do so, and they were told there was no other way, and that they had to be initiated, and that in order to be initiated they had to follow all these rules and adopt this lifestyle. And now Bhaktivedanta said none of this was true! It’s not necessary to be initiated. If you are initiated as a disciple it is a fairy tale that there is now some eternal karmic link between the guru and disciple. Disciple means one who follows the discipline, and that’s it! And whatever else you may think it means is a fairy tale! And from this particular bit of “truth” it is now possible to distinguish all of the other fairy tales from all of the other “truths”. The fairy tales are the way the philosophy is presented as part of the Hindu Caste System to the plebian masses, which is called the “standard”, such as you have to have a guru, and be initiated by the guru, and do what the guru says, because without the guru you can’t become spiritually realized and go to heaven when you die. The “truth” is what’s really going on behind all the fairy tales

 

Two things here Jiva - you're right in saying that the pursuit of mystic powers, siddhis, is a distraction from the true path. In my opinion, some modern so called 'spiritual paths' eg Wicca, are seeking this only.

I can only say that Love for Krishna is there quite naturally in everyone - we just have to uncover our dormant love for Him - To love God is our true nature, all this materiel life and so on is given us for this one end.

And you're right about the residents of Vrindavana - they don't think of Him as God, but as their Dear Krishna - but still, he manifests to them in a way which shows that he is God - see my previous post from the 'Krsna' book where Yashodamayi looks into His mouth and sees the Visvat-Rupa, the Universal form.

Just one more point - part of the problem comes from the paucity of the english language - we have only one word for love, whilst I have read that in sanskrit there are over twenty words - and the same is true of the word 'knowledge'.

Love.

 

I’ll give you a couple examples of the “truths” you can separate from the fairy tales by following this method of understanding, and then I’ll get back to commenting on and explaining the rest of the conversation. I hope I’m not boring you, but this is my take on the meaning of this conversation and on a lot of the other answers Bhaktivedanta gave me to questions I asked him. So here’s an interesting fairy told to five year olds regarding something seemingly as innocuous as worshiping a plant called Tulasi. “This plant named Tulasi is a devotee and is the very favorite plant of the biggest of the big Gods in the sky named Vishnu, and by worshipping this plant we are worshiping Vishnu and making Vishnu happy, and if we make Vishnu happy then we will become free of all our bad karmas, even the baddest of the bad karmas which would be from killing a Brahmin, and therefore all our bad karmas that were going to get us in the future in this life, and would make us take bad future lives too, will all be burnt up and we’ll get to go to heaven when we die. All we have to do is to put a little dress on the plant, and dance around the plant, and sing a song for the plant, and put a little water on the planet, and Vishnu will accept our service and we’ll be freed from the bad prison house of Mannequin Land, because this is a really special plant and Vishnu really loves this plant more than any other plant in the whole wide world!” And what’s the “truth?” The purpose of the ritual of worshiping the Tulasi plant is to attain the experience of Sat Chit Ananda, to experience the spiritual dimension of reality. This is accomplished, as are all other rituals, by following particular techniques that enable you to focus you mind and get it to stop thinking about all the usual junk it thinks about so you can experience the spiritual dimension. Dancing around the plant is known as “asana”, ritualistic bodily movements or positioning, which is meant to bring about a sense of separation between you, the eternal consciousness and the mannequin. Singing is known as Pranayama, which is purposely altering the normal rate of breathing which is something else to do that further helps to focus the mind, looking at the pretty plant and the candles is known as Pratyahara, which is an “eye fascination” that causes the brain to add higher percentages of Alpha and Theta waves to the usual scattered Beta waves of the brain, which will cause your conscious mind to stop thinking about whatever else you were thinking about and focus on what you’re doing at the moment, which is called meditation. Listening to the singing and the music is known as Dharayana, or focus of the hearing, which further focuses the mind and helps you think about what you are doing. If you can ever get your mind to actually totally stop thinking about all the usual things it thinks about, which is mostly stuff in the past and the future, and focus completely on what you’re doing in the present moment, and if you correctly know why you’re doing all this stuff in the first place, which is know as Dhayana, or philosophical understanding, you will be able to experience the spiritual dimension to reality. You will first experience what is known as Sat, which is the experience of your Self as the eternal consciousness completely different from and separate from your mannequin. You will experience your mannequin as nothing more than a big puppet dancing around, and you exist on another dimension and just experience through it from afar. You will also experience your Self as the detached watcher of the usual thoughts of the mind that pertain to the mannequin and its various designations and activities here in Mannequin Land. You will also experience eternity, that you have always existed and will always exist and that there is no time. Chit, or knowledge, is experienced by being able to actually perceive the consciousness in the plant as being something completely different from and separate from the physical form of the plant, and that the consciousness of the plant is of the same spiritual nature as your Self, and being able to make the connection with that consciousness, so you can have a relationship with the plant and can talk to the plant and feel some emotions for the plant, as well as experience that the consciousness of the plant is aware of you as well. You then get to walk out the door, remaining in the experience of your Self as the eternal consciousness, which is called samadhi, and see and connect with the consciousness in all the other plants and trees all other living things. I f you like, you can then make the connection with the consciousness of the being who pervades the Earth, generally referred to as the “Great Spirit”, and to innumerable other eternal beings as well. This is the experience of the spiritual dimension of reality, which is technically known as having attained enlightenment or Yoga. Experiencing the spiritual dimension of reality will make you really happy, which is known as Ananda, or bliss. When you experience Sat Chit Ananda, you will have freed your Self from the illusion that you are bound in the material world, which is know as “nitya bandha”, (eternally conditioned) and experience that you have always been eternally liberated, which is known as “nitya siddha”. At that point you have returned to the eternal infinite dimension, and will live happily ever after.

Here’s just one more, but this is the biggest “standard” fairy tale of them all. “There are two categories of eternal beings. Some are big and infinite and all powerful ‘Gods’ and are known as Vishnu and His various forms, and some are little and not so powerful and are meant to ‘surrender’ to and serve the big ‘Gods’. The little guys are known as ‘jivas’, and we’re sorry to have to tell you this, but you're a jiva. The big ‘Gods’ and the little jivas all originally lived happily together in the eternal infinite realms, until something bad happened and a bunch of the little jivas went bad and decided they wanted to be like the big ‘Gods’, which of course was impossible since they were just inferior little jivas, so the bad little jivas had to go to the bad world of Mannequin Land where they could pretend they are ‘Gods’, which is unfortunately accompanied by the suffering of repeated births and deaths, until they learn their lesson and stop trying to play ‘God’, and surrender to their role of servant of the big ‘Gods’, and thus gain parole for good behavior from the bad prison house of Mannequin Land, and get to go back to the eternal realms and live happily ever after.”

 

This particular philosophical take on the nature of infinite reality is known as “Salvationism”, and has been presented as this fairy tale for thousands of years by the Brahmins of the Hindu Caste System for the benefit of the plebeian masses as an explanation for what we’re all doing here, as well as a motivational tactic to inspire the masses to make sure they follow all the rules of the caste system as the only method of attaining enlightenment and liberation. This is another one of those things known as the “standard” explanation. And what’s the “truth?” The Truth is called Sat Chit Ananda. Sat is eternal consciousness. Consciousness is comprised of light and colors, sounds, flavors, odors and “touches”, in infinite variety, all at the same “time”. Just as it is impossible to have “older” and “younger” beings in the dimension of Sat Chit Ananda where everyone is eternal and there’s no such thing as older and younger, it is also impossible to have an aspect of Sat Chit Ananda which is “greater” or “lesser” than another aspect, an aspect which is comprised of infinite colors, and another aspect which is comprised of only a finite number of colors, which would thereby make some beings “greater” and some beings “lesser”. So this particular conception of eternally “greater” and “lesser” beings is a fairy tale because it creates an impossible duality in a non-dual realm. There are no categories of greater and lesser eternal beings in the dimension of Sat Chit Ananda. There are no jivas.. There are no “inferior” or “lesser” beings. There are no “superior” beings. There are no “supreme” beings. There is no “original” being. There are no “more powerful” beings. There are no “less powerful” beings. There are no “expansions” of beings. These dualistic concepts simply do not exist in the dimension of Sat Chit Ananda. They only exist in the minds of those who are experiencing within this physical realm of duality. There are an infinite number of equal eternal infinite beings, and you’re one of them! As long as anyone maintains within their mind this illusory conception of eternally greater and lesser beings, that very thought creates the separation that makes it impossible to experience any of those beings, because you can’t experience them until you both correctly understand and experience your own eternal infinite Self, and if you think you’re a being who is in some way eternally different from and lesser than those beings, you can’t experience either the true nature of your infinite Self or theirs. So what’s this physical dimension we’re all experiencing and why are we experiencing it? Well, we’re all eternal infinite beings just being our infinite Selves! As eternal infinite beings, you’d think we could do anything wouldn’t you? But we can’t! There’s two things we can’t do, and this is why we’re all “here” experiencing this particular realm of three-dimensional space and time. First, because we’re eternal, which means we have always existed and will always exist, we cannot eliminate our existence. Therefore we’re stuck! We exist forever and we can’t not exist. Secondly, because we’re infinite, we can’t become finite. We can’t become something less than we are, nor can we not express some aspect of our infiniteness. Therefore we’re stuck again! We’re stuck having to “be all that we can be” forever and ever. As eternal infinite beings, we are capable of dreaming up and creating an infinite variety of things. This particular physical manifestation is one of the infinite possible things we could dream up and create, so we dreamed it up and created it! As the creators of this physical dimension, we are experiencing here out of our own free will and creative self-expression. We are here continuing to create and enjoying our own creation. We cannot become "liberated" because we are not "bound" in the first place! We are not “bad” for being here! We are not separated from some “source” that we have to get back to! We are not here to prove ourselves worthy of going to a better place! We are not here to "clear" our bad karma. We are not on some miserable wheel of samsara karma repeated birth and death until we gain "liberation" by "surrendering" to the will of some superior being. We are all free and independent creators and we can go anywhere we want, be anything we want and do anything we want. Who we all really are as beings of unlimited freedom, creativity and boundless joy is exemplified by Krishna and the life he led. The physical world is not a prison house from which we are supposed to escape, it’s an amusement park for eternal infinite beings killing eternal time trying to dream up something new. When you experience all this, you will cease considering yourself to be the dreamt, and become the dreamer.

So now back to the rest of the conversation, some of which is included in the transcript on this site. Yes, Jamadagni and I were apparently way ahead of our time in being able to see how “absolute power” corrupted those in positions of leadership within the movement, the observation of which apparently turned out to be correct, as these leaders (as far as I’ve heard since I really haven’t been around or involved or paid much attention to it all since 73 when I left) ended up causing quite a bit of difficulties within the movement, especially ante Bhaktivedanta when they became the “gurus”, which the rest of the devotees eventually had to deal with. To me this was all the inevitable result of the philosophy of the “miserable material world” that you have to try and escape from. If you think this is a miserable material world, you will create within your personal life a miserable material world to live in.

 

And it was definitely true that Bhaktivedanta was not told and therefore did not know about whatever things were going on that he definitely would not have approved of. So Jamadagni, as I said before, a far more sincere devotee and crusader rabbit that I ever was, apparently set out to tell him about it all, since that’s what I can see the conversation is about now that I’m reading it again. I really didn’t know at the time what Jamadagni specifically wanted to talk to Bhaktivedanta about. We didn’t discuss it before hand, and as I said before, I wasn’t really all that interested in whatever fiasco had happened in Hawaii. I personally entered the arena with no agenda whatsoever, not to support Jamadagni, and certainly not to tell Bhaktivedanta about the corruption of the leaders, cause I personally couldn’t have cared less.

You can read the conversation yourself and see all the things Jamadagni said about the various difficulties and problems within the movement, since the majority of the conversation was between him and Bhaktivedanta. I’ll just give you one quote from Jamadagni that’s from the beginning and isn’t on the post on this site, and you’ll see why this whole conversation got the response from the temple authorities that it did, and why the tape was purged from the archives. “So we are trying to speak to you that some of the men who you have appointed to positions of administration are greatly misusing that responsibility, and the general public opinion is that they are acarya in the same sense that you are acarya, and so we accept you as our guru but we do not accept the GBC as our guru so that they can speak on everything because they are not realized like you are realized. So when they misuse that power it causes some of us very great difficulty in pursuing our own Krishna consciousness.” Yup! Well, I guess that just about says it all! Can’t possibly imagine why all the movements leaders got so bent out of shape over that! And I again agree with dirty hari’s evaluation of what Bhaktivedanta had been told about Jamadagni prior to the conversation, which accounted for his attitude, as well as the evaluation of when Bhaktivedanta’s attitude changed when he realized he had not exactly been told the whole truth of the situation; but as far as I’m concerned this is all irrelevant, as is the part about the King guy and the 4 billion body guards, as is all the sociological stuff about the problems of devotees in the movement, as is all the bad things all the bad leaders were doing. To me, all that’s relevant are the various “truths” Bhaktivedanta told which are different from the usual fairy tales, and how you can use those truths to then be able to separate all the other truths from all the other fairy tales.

So here’s the only few other quotes from Bhaktivedanta from the conversation that I consider to be the various “truths”, some of them similar to the first truth already discussed regarding the concept of initiation, and then I’ll give you my interpretation of what I think it all means. Some are from the parts on this site and some are from the other parts.

“They are all neophytes. If you show something which is beyond our jurisdiction then they may be influenced. They are not all very advanced. You may be very advanced but they are not very advanced”

“If you are above the general principle that does not mean you cannot become Krishna conscious, and if you are lower than the general principle that does not mean that you cannot become Krishna conscious. Krishna consciousness is unconditional, but we have got some general principle, to make step by step.”

“Without becoming my disciple you can become Krishna conscious.”

“Disciple means to agree to follow the discipline, to abide by the rules given by the Spiritual Master That’s all!”

“The general rule is that one cannot make any spiritual advancement without taking shelter of a Spiritual Master, but if you are more advanced then your position is different.”

“If you think you are so advanced that you don’t need following discipline that means you are advanced, don’t require it, and can still be Krishna conscious.”

Even though I would not consider myself to be a disciple of Bhaktivedanta, it would be impossible for me to go outside of his instructions to me, for he told me to always trust my own intelligence and never accept anything that my intelligence did not understand. The only way I could possibly go outside of his instructions, would be to totally give up my own intelligence, move into a Hare Krishna temple or find some other guru guy propounding all this same stuff, and start believing all the fairy tale explanations.

My basic interpretation of the quotes I just listed, is that the common people (the neophytes) are basically considered to be too stupid to be able to be told the actual truth about anything, so they are given all the fairy tale explanations so they can take everything step-by-step. If buying into all the fairy tales is what you think you have to do to become Krishna conscious, and you’re not smart enough to be able to figure out the actual truths from the fairy tales, then you get to live a life of fairy tales. If you’re smart enough to be able to figure out the truths, then you don’t. The fairy tales are all the “standard” explanations of the Hindu Caste System, which includes about 90% of all the information presented in all the so-called infallible books. The “truths” are such things as there is actually no such thing as “initiations”, there are no “lineages” of gurus, there are no Brahmins, there are no sanyassi’s, there is no need to follow all the cultural rules of the Hindu Brahmins in order to attain spiritual awareness, and Krishna doesn’t care if you have long hair! The problem with fairy tales is that because they are fairy tales, you have to believe them (which is why you can’t ask why because there is no why), but the word “’belief” has no meaning, nor does the word “faith”. A belief is simply a thought in words that the person has attached a certain amount of emotion to, and they keep thinking the same thought over and over again, so now the feel they have “faith” in their “belief”. Belief is meaningless because it is not based on intelligent perception and understanding, and if you don’t fully understand what you are doing, why you are doing it and how the various processes of attaining the experience of Sat Chit Ananda actually work, you can’t get the experience. This is what Bhaktivedanta taught me for which I shall be forever appreciative, how to trust my own intelligence and how to separate the truths from the fairy tales. Every answer he ever gave me to any of my questions, including in this conversation, was the truth separated from the fairy tale, but then like I said before, I only got these truths from him because I knew the right questions to ask, to everyone else he gave the fairy tale. And in my opinion this is the only importance of this conversation, that perhaps now you can also learn how to trust your own intelligence and be able to figure out the truths from the fairy tales.

As I said at the beginning, of my own accord I would never have written this story down and posted it on a website. I am a very private person. These are my personal experiences, my personal relationship with Bhaktivedanta, and my personal realizations. I have no concern if anyone likes the story or either agrees or disagrees with anything I have written here. I was asked to make a posting regarding this conversation and I have done so according to who I am. When I was asked to make the posting, at first I was a bit hesitant, but then I thought, “Wouldn’t it be nice if someone actually got some benefit out of whatever it is I write that would help them make a better connection with their own eternal infinite Self!”

Everything I have to say directly regarding this conversation is concluded at this point, but for anyone who might be interested, I’ll give you a couple more fairy tales and the truths behind them.

 

Ah Chief! I thought as much...ie that you were joking.

I know that the rasa of conjugal love is the highest - but its still Krishna's Divine nature that is behind the attraction of the Gopis - or am I wrong in this?

Hari Om.

 

This is a very scary fairy tale told to five year olds. “We are all bad for being here in the bad world of Mannequin Land. Our very existence is bad and the things we do are bad and will bring us bad karma for which we’ll have to suffer in the future. Since one of the things we do a lot of is to eat, if we don’t know the right magic words to say before we eat the food, we’ll get really bad karma just for eating! Says so in the book! So we have to get the magic words from the magic Brahmin, cause they’re the only ones who know the right magic words to say, and then we have to make sure we always say the magic words before we eat the food. When we say the magic words, the God from the sky comes down and eats the food, and we don’t have to get any of the bad karma we would have gotten if we hadn’t said the magic words, plus, the food now becomes magical food, and just eating the magical food will now free us from all our bad karmas and we’ll all get to go to heaven when we die.” And the truth. Once again, all rituals are the same and are meant to do the same thing, to get your idiotic mind to stop thinking about all the usual idiotic stuff it thinks about and to focus on what you’re doing in the present moment so you can experience your Self as the eternal infinite Sat Chit Ananda consciousness you really are. And just what would that experience be in regards to food that it’s so important to always do this ritual before you eat? The experience to be gained is that you are the flavors of the foods you are eating, which is called experiencing the spiritual dimension to reality. You are the consciousness. Consciousness is comprised of infinite varieties of sensory essences. You are not experiencing an “external world”, you are only experiencing your Self. You are made of infinite flavors. When you are tasting the food, you are bringing to your conscious awareness that one aspect of your Self which is the particular flavor of the food. You are the colors you see, you are the sounds you hear, you are the flavors you taste, you are the odors you smell. Consciousness only experiences it Self. To experience this is to experience Sat Chit Ananda, the spiritual dimension of reality. Since eating is something we do so often, if you can learn how to focus when you are eating and experience your Self as the flavors of the food, then you will be able to maintain that same focus and be able to continually experience your Self as the eternal infinite Sat Chit Ananda consciousness you really are.

This is just one last fairy tale, but it’s a very important fairy tale since it involves the primary technique for experiencing the various aspects of your eternal infinite Self, and if you don’t know how the techniques really work, you can’t get to a deep enough state of meditation to make them work. So here’s the fairy tale. By the reaction you have to this one you’ll be able to know what actual desires you have for you own enlightenment, and what vested interests you have for living in a world of fairy tales and beliefs. “The Sanskrit language is a magical language, and repeating particular Sanskrit words known as ‘mantras’ or ‘Holy Names of God’ in and of themselves will enable you to attain both the experience of your own eternal Self and the experience of the ‘God’, even if you don’t know what any of the words mean. The ‘God’ and the name of the ‘God’ are the same, and by repeating the name of the ‘God’ you are thereby associating with the ‘God’ and will be purified of all your bad karma and you’ll get to go to heaven when you die.”

And the truth. You are an eternal infinite being currently having the experience of the illusion of finiteness in the world of Mannequin Land. If you choose to live in the temporary delusion of your Self as being a mannequin, you have every right to do so, but if you would like to gain, at least to some degree, the experience of your eternal infinite Self while you are still experiencing through your mannequin here in Mannequin Land, there are particular techniques that will enable you to gain that experience. The experience both of your own eternal infinite Self and of any other eternal infinite Beings, is beyond the usual range of the thoughts of what is called the material mind, the thoughts of which basically deal with the mannequin and it’s various designations and activities here in Mannequin Land. The material mind is like the clouds in the sky, and You, the eternal consciousness, are the Sun on the other side of the clouds. The entire purpose of doing all of the techniques is to clear away the clouds in the sky so you can see the Sun. You do not have to do anything to become the Sun, you already are the Sun.

 

The techniques all enable you to gain control of the thoughts of the mind so you can clear away the clouds and thus experience the Sun, but there’s a real lot of clouds and therefore we need a real lot of techniques to clear them away, cause until they’re all cleared away, you can’t completely see the Sun. The four basic techniques of gaining control of the thoughts of the mind so you can clear away the clouds, are Asana which is ritualistic bodily motion or positioning, Pranayama which is altering the normal rate of breathing, Pratyahara which is staring at something intently, and Dharayana which is focus of the hearing. The fifth step is called Dhayana which is philosophical understanding, which is basically what are you doing all this stuff for and what’s supposed to happen to you by doing it. The chanting or singing of mantras fulfills both Pranayama and Dharayana within the process, but the use of mantras has the possibility to accomplish more than would just chanting meaningless words or words about Mannequin Land, because the mantras have meanings that are the various qualities and attributes of the energies of Sat Chit Ananda, and you know what the meanings are. The four techniques will slow down all the usual thoughts of the material mind and will take you to a light state of meditation which is known as Alpha, which is the beginning of letting a little bit of Sun shine through the clouds, but there’s still a lot of clouds so there’s still a lot of thoughts in the mind pertaining to your life in Mannequin Land, but the little bit of Sun shine feels real good, as you will gain a bit of the experience of Sat Chit Ananda. You will feel a slight sense of separation from your mannequin, have a sense of timelessness, a feeling that you are connected to something other than your usual self, and you will feel a greater amount of positive emotions as the Sunshine of Ananda shines upon you. These are light meditational states and can be gained regardless of what you are chanting or singing, for after all, every single religion and spiritual practice in the entire world uses these same four techniques, and people must be getting something out of it or no one would keep doing it, but this is just a little bit of Sunshine and there’s still a whole lot of clouds. In order to clear away the rest of the clouds, it is necessary to get to a much deeper state of meditation known as Theta, and this is where the use of mantras comes in. If you use a mantra without knowing what the mantra means, or think that you’re just supposed to listen to the sound of the mantra cause the mantra’s going to do all the work and therefore not think anything at all, it will work, but it will only work to take you to light states of Alpha meditation as just described, which is basically Kindergarten compared to the depth of meditation you need to get to in order to get the full experiences of Sat Chit Ananda. Every mantra, every name, is the representation of a particular aspect of the energies of Sat Chit Ananda, and you have to know what the mantra or name means, and which aspects and qualities of spiritual energies it represents if you are going to be able to use the mantra to get you to a deep enough level of meditation to awaken within you the qualities represented by the mantra. You can’t just listen to the mantra or just focus on the mantra with the purpose of quieting the usual thoughts of the conscious mind, or that’s all you’ll get from using the mantra, which is the light states of meditation described. You must know what the mantra means, what are the unique qualities and attributes of Sat Chit Ananda represented my each mantra, and you then have to think of those qualities and attributes as you do the mantra in order for the mantra to take you to a deep enough state of meditation to actually experience the Sat Chit Ananda qualities of the mantra. The fairy tale is that the mantra itself, even if you don’t know what it means, will take you to the full experience of Sat Chit Ananda just because it’s a “magical vibration”. Thinking about the meaning of the mantra while you are doing the mantra is known as Dhayana, or contemplation, and will take you to a deep enough state of meditation to gain the experiences of the attributes of Sat Chit Ananda represented by the mantra, but you have to know what “thinking about the meaning of the mantra means” in order for the process to work. For example, there are four mantras or names of different aspects of spiritual energy that go by the words Vasudeva, Shankarsan, Pradyumna and Anniruddha. You could say these words as many times as you like and you would never gain the full experience of what they mean because just repeating the words would do no more than to help focus your conscious mind and thereby take you to a light state of meditation, which is exactly what the repetition of any word over and over again would do. In order to get any effect from the mantra, you must know not only what the word means, but what the experience would be for each mantra. So, Vasudeva is the infinite all-pervading consciousness. Shankarsan is the creative force of spiritual energy. Pradyumna is Infinite Intelligence, and Anniruddha is infinite joyful emotions. The purpose of doing the mantra is to awaken within you all these aspects of Sat Chit Ananda, or put another way, to bring forth more strongly from within your Self the qualities represented by these beings Why is this? Because any experience you may have of these beings is only bringing forth from within your infinite Self the aspects of your Self which are the experience, in the same way that tasting a peach is only bringing forth from within you that one aspect of your infinite flavorful Self which is the taste of the peach! You experience nothing but your Self! There are an infinite number of eternal infinite beings, and you’re one of them. That’s what it means that there’s no jivas, there’s only an infinite number of Vishnus, and you’re one of them! But from your personal experiential state, since you’re an infinite being, there can’t be anything outside of your Self, greater than your Self or other than your Self, so from your personal perspective, You are the one and only being who exists, and you never experience anything except your Self! You can only gain the experience of any other eternal infinite beings by first gaining the experience of your own eternal infinite Self. So if you think that these are names of beings who are “greater” than you, and that the purpose of doing the mantra is to connect with those beings, just what exactly is it that you’re expecting to get by making the connection, other than some fairy tale story that now they’re going to burn up all your bad karmas so you can go to heaven. Well, whatever it is you’re expecting to get, will only be bringing forth from within your infinite Self the aspects of your Self which are the experience, same as everything else you experience. So what you’re really going for is to experience some aspect of your infinite Self that you’re just not usually used to experiencing, and then hopefully to be able to maintain the experience. So no matter what you do and what you think you’re experiencing, you’re only experiencing your Self, you’re an infinite being, remember?

 

So, how do you use the mantras to gain all these various experiences. Easy, you just have to know what you’re doing, because to do it you have to be able to get to a deep enough state of meditation known as Theta, wherein you can see vivid imagery with your eyes closed, like you can in dreams, which isn’t all that easy to do unless you know how the process works to do it. You also have to know what “thinking about the meaning of the mantra” means once you’re in the Theta state, which is also easy once you know how to do it. So what are you trying to do if you were to chant our four names of Vasudeva, Shankarsan, Pradyumna and Anniruddha? Well, you’re trying to bring forth from within your Self the qualities and characteristics of the aspects of Sat Chit Ananda which are represented by these names and those beings. So what are those characteristics and qualities, and more importantly, how would you expect to be feeling if you experienced them? What do you expect you’d be experiencing if you experienced Vasudeva, infinite consciousness, or Shankarsan, infinite power, or what do you think the connection to Infinite Intelligence would be like, which is Pradyumna, or the experience of all joyful emotions which is Anniruddha? You first need to put into words, as best you can and in as many words as you possibly can, how you think and expect you would be feeling if you had these experiences, because it is those feelings that you are going for in your meditations. The purpose of all this is to intensify your states of positive emotions, since emotions are the energy of the spirit, and it is the intensity of the emotions that you bring forth that connects you to the dimension of Sat Chit Ananda. The words you come up with that describe those feelings are what you use to think about while you are doing the mantra at the same time. This added dimension of focusing on the attributes and qualities of the mantra is what is necessary to focus the mind to get to a deep enough state of meditation to be able to gain the experiences. You keep repeating the mantra and keep repeating in your mind the words of the emotions of what you want, and ask your Theta Mind to provide you with imaginary images that represent the emotions and state of being you want which are represented by the words. The additional dimension of seeing inner visions will take you into a deep enough state of meditation to actually be able to gain the experiences of the emotions you are going for. The images can be of anything at all that your Theta Mind feels will bring you the state of emotions and the experiences you want, so just go with whatever images just come up, you can always get more. Then all you have to do is to focus on the images, and describe to yourself how the images are making you feel, and the degrees of positive emotional intensity will increase to the point till all the clouds in the sky just float away, and you can experience the beautiful Sunshine, and live happily ever after!

Om Tat Sat

Kenny Rich

8/24/04
8 pm
LA

 

in my understanding, yes, Krishna's is no ordinary boy and inseparable from His divinity but in the Super Conscious states of the brijabhasis, theology has been left in the dust and Krishna is experienced in pure love and innocence

 

That is a fascinating read - thanks Chief Cowpie for posting it.


I'd just like to add a couple of short quotes that pertain to some of the points covered.

'INITIATION IS A FORMALITY. First of all you have to decide whether you will abide by the rules and regulationa and become Krsna Conscious. That is your consideration. You have to decide for yourself whether you are going to take this Krsna Consciousness seriously. That is your descision.INITIATION IS A FORMALITY. If you are serious, THAT IS REAL INITIATION. If you have understood this Krsna philosophy and if you have decided you will take Krsna Consciousness seriously and preach the philosophy to others, that is your initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination.THAT IS INITIATION.
Srila Prabhupada conversation, 'The Search for the Divine' BTG#49. Quoted in 'Back to Prabhupada' magazine.

And from a different source:
'The perfect faith (shraddha) is an assent of the whole being to the truth seen by it or offered to its acceptance, and its central working is a faith of the soul in its own will to be and attain and become and its idea of self and things and its knowledge, of which the belief of the intellect, the heart's consent and the desire of the life mind to posses and realize are the outward figures'.

Sri Aurobindo 'The Synthesis of Yoga' ch. XVIII.

Hari Om.

 

I like both these a lot. The first one makes me feel better about being a "closet Hare Krishna", as my friend calls it (ei...only telling a few people) and the second one is just plain beautiful. Thank you. Haribol!

 

I think you are wise if you keep it to yourself except where those close to you, and whom you trust are concerned. This is because it's not good just to expose one's belief and so on to constant criticism, or even worse, from those who don't (as yet) understand. Srila Prabhupada mentions somewhere ( I can't recall exactly where off hand) something to the effect that Bhakti is like a tender young shoot or creeper when it first appears. This young shoot is delicate, and like a materiel plant, has to be protected, watered and nourished continually. Then it will grow up until it reaches Krishna's lotus feet. Thats a very nice image I think, and it says it all As one develops in the spiritual path (whatever path, if it's genuinely spiritual) so one grows in confidence, but still, it isn't possible always to tell everyone everything!

Shanti.

 

i thought so too... i read it a few times

 

I do like that analogy a lot It is indeed lovely imagry. Thanks for understanding

 

Bharatiya Vidyabhavan, USA
(Institute of Indian Culture)
proudly presents

Sant Meera

A magnificent Musical Dance Drama depicting the story of Meerabai,
India's outstanding devotional poet-saint of the 16th century,
who sang in ecstasy-

"mere tho Giridhar Gopal
doosar na koyi..."

(Krishna is my only Beloved, no one else)

It is the story of Meerabai's steadfast faith, uncompromising devotion
and total surrender to her Beloved Krishna which made her
transcend the temporal plane and unite with the Lord Himself.

"SANT MIRA" - A Musical Dance Drama
by Shakti Dance Company, Los Angeles
under the direction of Smt. Viji Prakash
who successfully presented the
musical dance drama Bhagavad Gita in August 2003.

Venue: September 18, 2004; 7:00 p.m. at -
ALICE TULLY HALL Lincoln Center, 65th street, Broadway, NYC

source: http://www.bhavanus.com/mira04.htm

​

 

March 5, 2004 VNN8571

Srila Prabhupada Coming To The Silver Screen

BY EX ORIENTE LUX

USA, Mar 5 (VNN) — HRISIKESH - The Motion Picture of Life Times

The extra-ordinary life story of Srila Prabhupada disciple Hrisikesa dasa is set for the Silver Screen. The 600 page pre-production Script is completed and Asia's Pacific Film Works (20th Century Fox) has given the green light. The 6th Sense director M. Night Shyamalan is under consideration to direct the movie, which will be filmed on location using local production services in California, London, Nepal, India, Thailand, and Bali.

In the movie, tentatively named Hrisikesh, His Divine Grace is a major character. Srila Prabhupada may be played by famous Indian actor, Amrish Puri (who looks very much like Srila Prabhupada). Ben Kingsley may play HDG Srila Bon Maharaj. Josh Hartnett is under consideration to play Hrisikesh. Within two years the movie may be seen on main line cinemas around the globe. Featured in this movie are reincarnation, Krishna consciousness, Srila Prabhupada, Srila Bon Maharaj, Gaudiya Vaishnava Ashram life, Gaudiya siddhanta (mostly question and answer), the subplot of tug-of-war between Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bon Maharaj is also a feature. It is also a Rock 'n' Roll movie about The Misunderstood, it is a fugitive - escape movie, it is a culture shock movie, it is a war movie, and it is a thriller!

First he gets murdered, then his adventure begins: This movie begins in 1947 with Hrisikesh as an 80 year old sadhu getting shot during partition riots and then reborn in America as Richard Shaw-Brown. It features Hrisikesh as a rock 'n' roll star fugitive meeting devotees in San Francisco (1967) and becoming a disciple of Srila Prabhupada; it also features the philosophy of Lord Chaitanya, and the early days of the Hare Krishna Movement, also featured will be Vrindavan, and Mount Govardhan, and Varshana, and Nandagram, and Jaipur, and Karoli, and Delhi, and Bombay, and swinging 60s London, the extraordinarily great band, The Misunderstood, and it's unfair plight and super music, and exotic Bali; also the VN draft and Boot Camp (with Uncle Sam demonized as the Devil and Vietnam war as hell), state of the art technology will be used to create FX reincarnation scenes that will be a roller-coaster ride for the viewers, Shyamasundar & Mukunda Maharaj are chief characters, as is Srila Krishna Das Babaji; it is also a Katmandu movie, a 1967 Summer of Love hippy movie, and an ANTI-WAR MOVIE! It is a story of East meets West.

To read a synopsis click http://www.hrisikesh.net/Synopsis.htm Richard Shaw Brown, who co-wrote the screenplay, will be a consultant in several countries to help with the story boards and other details of costumes, procedures, etc.

This is a 1st for Srila Prabhupada himself to be featured in a big budget Hollywood movie. And on the pretext of telling Hrisikesa's story, Lord Krishna's philosophy is revealed. Password holders are welcome to download the entire script as a pdf.file before it goes beyond pre-production and a line producer breaks it up into lighting script, cameras script, sets script, costumes script, above and below the line actors scripts, make up script, locations script, etc. This film should be a BIG boost for Gaudiya Vaishnavism, and help make Srila Prabhupada much more famous. Just as Mel Gibsons's Passion is reviving so much interest in Christ, so hrisikesh can create a global revival of Srila Prabhupada and Gaudiya Siddhanta.

For more information visit the official site at http://www.hrisikesh.net

 

"Even though there are many worthy sages like Vyasadeva available to us, they will recognize us, and thinking that we are omniscient will be reluctant to teach us. This is because they are Vaishnavas and therefore know the truth of things related to Vishnu. However, we absolutely must engage in our studies, because to not do so would be a transgression and that would set a bad example leading to inauspiciousness. Therefore, we should approach a guru who is fully knowledgeable in the scriptures (zabde brahmaNi niSNAtam) but is a Shaiva. There is one such sage, Sandipani Muni, who was born in Kashi and comes to Prabhasa Kshetra from time to time. He is living happily in Avanti now, near his beloved Shiva. Let us go there...

 

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THE INCORRUPTIBILITY OF THE GANGES



The Ganges is 2525 kilometers long. Along its course, 27 major towns dump 902 million liters of sewage into it each day. Added to this are all those human bodies consigned to this holy river, called the Ganga by the Indians. Despite this heavy burden of pollutants, the Ganges has for millennia been regarded as incorruptible. How can this be?

Several foreigners have recorded the effects of this river's "magical" cleansing properties:

1. Ganges water does not putrefy, even after long periods of storage. River water begins to putrefy when lack of oxygen promotes the growth of anaerobic bacteria, which produce the tell-tale smell of stale water.
   
2. British physician, C.E. Nelson, observed that Ganga water taken from the Hooghly -- one of its dirtiest mouths -- by ships returning to England remained fresh throughout the voyage.
   
3. In 1896, the British physician E. Hanbury Hankin reported in the French journal Annales de l'Institut Pasteur that cholera microbes died within three hours in Ganga water, but continued to thrive in distilled water even after 48 hours.
   
4. A French scientist, Monsieur Herelle, was amazed to find "that only a few feet below the bodies of persons floating in the Ganga who had died of dysentery and cholera, where one would expect millions of germs, there were no germs at all.

More recently, D.S. Bhargava, an Indian environmental engineer measured the Ganges' remarkable self-cleansing properties:

"Bhargava's calculations, taken from an exhaustive three-year study of the Ganga, show that it is able to reduce BOD [biochemical oxygen demand] levels much faster than in other rivers." ​

Quantitatively, the Ganges seems to clean up suspended wastes 15 to 20 times faster than other rivers.

(Kalshian, Rakesh; "Ganges Has Magical Cleaning Properties," Geographic, 66:5, April 1994.)

[size=-1]From Science Frontiers #94, JUL-AUG 1994. © 1994-2000 William R. Corliss[/size]