how do you know that?

Well, that would depend on several factors. But maybe you can briefly give your reason for why Christianity is illogical.

 

I don't see where you explained it. You asked me a question about a pet monkey, but I don't see where you gave your reason for Christianity being illogical. I was just wondering the reason why you say that.

 

Well, that depends. If I can get away with doing what I want without much conflict, then? Is there still a reason why I should respect your life, why I should feel an obligation to coexist with you?

 

I wondered when someone would make this argument. To be honest it is an argument I have only heard put forward by people seeking to defend religion, yet perhaps you asked the question hastily, as if you look around at the world it seems the only people behaving in an uncivilised and brutal manner, re those who believe in god. I see no communists out there causing terrorism. I see no atheists attacking non atheists with bombs.

The argument is not a wise one since many people have ethical values that go far beyond those of people who believe in god. It is not simply out of fear of imprisonment that I choose not to murder someone. I havent murdered anyone and I will not murder anyone simply because I place great value on human life, mine and other peoples.
I do not burgle peoples houses simply because my moral values are such that I condemn those who steal and do not want to steal from others because it is not what good people should do. I do not have to believe in damnation and hell to believe that there is a measurement by which we can judge the actions of others and ourselves. The principle of least pain and maximum pleasure might be used in conjunction with the thought that I should behave to others as I want them to behave with me.
The moral high ground is certainly not only with religious believers - but with people of other equally assertive beliefs

 

Do we live in the same world?

i dont....

 

Have there not been evil men throughout history who have denied the existence of God while committing atrocities?

Definitely, Atheists can be ethical and they know right from wrong. Don't get me wrong, I not trying to mischaracterize Atheists. Belief in God is not a requirement for ethical behavior. I guess the question is why should we do what is right. a.) because the government tells us what is right and we should obey it b.) because there is an absolute standard that we are accountable to c.) it's a matter of personal preference what is right and wrong d.) other

Why should you do unto others as you would want them to do to you? Is it just so that you can function in society and avoid conflict like Insanejester was talking about? Why place great value on human life?

 

I certainly don't want to cause you conflict and love coexisting with you. I hope you don't take what I said personally, but for the sake of discussion, what if you're not in a position to retaliate. Maybe you're laid up sick or injured. Or maybe you're just not as big as I am. You're not causing me much anxiety. Why should I care about respecting your life?

So, learning to coexist is the key, but there is no real reason for doing so other that avoiding conflict and anxiety.

 

I guess I don't. I was looking for something more like "Christianity is illogical because..."

 

Okay. But what if my personal values don't include the obligation for me to respect your life. You did say that short of avoiding anxiety and conflict that there is no reason to feel obligated to coexist with you.

Maybe I want your car. Maybe I want your money or your wife. Maybe I'm just sick of dealing with you. If I can get away with getting what I want then...

 

Alright, that's your reason. If I understand it correctly, you believe God is an imaginary being because there is no evidence for His existence.

Let me just ask you, have you already seen all of the evidence already? Have you searched the entirety of the material universe? The immaterial? Is it possible that evidence might be available to you someday?

If so, what kind of evidence would be convincing to you? Would any evidence ever be acceptable to you while you are presuming from the start that there is no God?

 

Then can we say that there is nothing inherently wrong with murder as long as I can get away with it?

 

Sorry, didn't mean to mischaracterize your position. I thought you were saying that there is no God based on what you said earlier, "Because god, is an imaginary being... that does not exist..."

You say that you are open to hear what someone wishes to put foward but you also don't believe that you will ever be given anything sufficient, not you don't know if you will ever be given anything sufficient.

It's important to ask whether or not anything would ever be sufficient for you. If you are holding by faith that you will never have sufficient evidence then every piece of evidence presented can be bent to fit your belief you started out with and given an alternate explanation, even if it results in illogical thinking.

If you haven't decided what kind of evidence would be sufficient then I don't think you can say that there is no evidence for God.

Yes, I have seen much convincing evidence that God exists.

 

I beleive there is a God but I beleive we will never know him.

 

No simply that if you are a good person then you will generally not entertain the thought of doing bad - like I said before - I dont commit murder, why, well certainly not because anyone told me not to do it. Murder the thought of murder horifies me - my empathy with other humans is such that I respect them as I respect myself unless they show me they cannot or should not be respected. Why do you believe law has to be imposed on you? Cant you act responsibly and therefore rely on someonelse to guard your behaviour for you? I believe it may be insanejester who told me he is an existentialist. The problem with people who assert the idea that we are free to do what we want if god does not exist is more often touted by people who claim to be existentialist after reading "existentialism for beginners".

What the existentialists who contibuted work to that body of knowledge were saying is - that given there is no god, man is free to become what he wants, and it is this "becoming" that is our freedom. In the act of asserting what we are, we find responsibility. Therefore - Freedom and Responsibility by Jean Paul Sartre. In Fear of Freedom, Erich Fromm, etc etc etc
Yes initially we were free to choose but in choosing we are not free - that is the exact description of life according to existentialists and they find that human law is as valid as any biblical law because we chose responsibility. That was Sartres point that we find freedom everywhere but choose responsibility. Hopefully that is the right path, I think it is. If others act outside that framework of law and ethics it is right we punish them.(I dont want to turn this into a discussion of Nietzsche but his work is generally regarded as only of minior importance to formal existentialists as he wrote in riddles rather than any form of propositional logic - besides Sartre's work negates Nietzsche generally).

 

Okay, you respect other humans as you do yourself. You think murder is wrong.

Is it every okay for a person to murder another person? You say no, it's wrong. Why is it wrong? What if I don't have a problem with it in some cases. What if I believe that if someone is really getting on my nerves then...It's wrong for you but not for me.

Can you blame me for committing a crime if I don't have the same values as you do? Why should I respect other peoples lives? What's the purpose?

I don't think you need the government to tell you not to murder in order for you to know it is wrong and not do it. But why shouldn't I do it? If it fits into my plan for survival and getting what I want...

(by the way, like you, the thought of murder horrifies me and I don't think it is ever okay, but for the discussion I'm asking these questions.)

 

Sorry but very little of that makes sense. You havent murdered anyone have you? If not then good I am glad, but if you have I hope society puts you in prison. Simple as that - I dont need a holy book to say murderers are bad. I know they are because if a murderer takes my life .... well do I really need to explain - I mean we made laws and prisons precisely because god doesnt strike people down with lightening bolts for even the harshest crime-
So I dont get what you are saying here ! We are managing very well without god to manage our judicial affairs so I cant see why need a god to tell us murder is bad - it is self evident that if a murderer kills me that is the baddest thing he could do so we punish murder as the worst crime - its not some big mystery as to why we need a god - its a fact as to why we dont like murderers
god never decreed that trading after the close of the stockmarket would be punishable with a fine . That was us - we are quite capable of complex decisions concerning judicial law
(ha infact as usual its innocent bystanders that get hurt by "acts of god" such as lightening bolts - same with bombs huh?)

 

No, I haven't murdered anyone. I just want to boil all this down and get to the basics.

Belief in God is not a requirement for ethical behavior.The question I'm asking is why is it wrong to murder. I believe you said it's wrong because you respect another person's life as you would want them to respect your life.
You see a need to do to the other person what you would want them to do to you.

But what if I don't? If it's all personal opinion about how we should treat each other then you can't point the finger at me when I do what I think is right and acceptable.

If on the other hand it is wrong across the board for anyone to commit murder in any circumstance, then why? Why is it wrong? Why does this absolute exist?

I agree with you Columbo that murder is wrong in all cases. No question. But I think it is important to ask ourselves these questions and be reasonable to see if what we profess to believe is what we really believe and live out and if it corresponds with reality.

 

Christianity says that moral law is rooted in the character and nature of God. Since man has been created in His image, man's character ought to reflect the character of his Creator. A man's life has value because he is made in the image of God. Because of this, murder is always wrong.

The Bible says that God has written His law on our hearts. Thus, we have intuitive knowldege of God's existence. I agree with you 100% Columbo that we should do unto others as we would want them to do to us. We intuitively know this is the right thing to do and we know when we do evil. The Bible gives an answer for why this is reality.

God is the standard. The moral standard is rooted in His supreme, unchanging character. He calls us to love Him and to love our neighbor. Jesus Himself said to do to others what you would have them do to you.(Matthew 7:12)

When asked what the greatest commandment is Jesus said, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)

 

Well you are totally free to murder anyone you want to now ! but if you do - then you must face people who are in the majority and answer to their justice.
What you have said isnt making sense - I am neither afraid of the law or god and yet I still dont want to murder anyone. Why, because I KNOW that MY life is valuable to me, therefore as a member of the human race I empathise with others as they must think their life is valuable to them. It is an assumption that is just, well, an assumption - but a good one dont you think. That alone that empathy - my enjoyment of life and my assumption others enjoy their life is enough huh? Thats why I dont kill - I like that others enjoy their lives - now theres enough of us so that we know murder exists and we make laws that say murderers shall be heavily punished.
I dont get your argument - if you think that because their is no god it means theres no moral duty you are wrong -
Generally as soon as humans realised it was safer to congregate in societies they encountered problems and made rules. That is what good people do. They protect the notion of what is just and judiciary laws are based on the fact that men are free and honourable until they prove by actions that they are not. If you think a group of people would just start killin each other because they realised theres no god you are mistaken.
men have never seen god strike a person down for any sin

 

So then, is it the country's laws decided by men that determine ultimate right from wrong?