how do you know that?

Although I essentially agree with what you are saying, there is a form of reason called "knowledge apriori" which would/could assert differently to this Its logic is basically this:
suppose you and I agree that all three sided objects are called triangles
so now we both understand that when I say "triangle" or "triangular" I refer to a three sided object, and if I say "three sided object" you will know it means "triangular" - then you need have no faith but certain knowledge that if you are shown a three sided object - no matter what other men call it - they can only mean the word "triangular" or "triangle" when it is obvious they are teaching you its name in their language.

"apriori knowledge" = knowledge before the fact

Notice it says "I exist" that is because for someone to have any experience at all there must be an "I" that exists - existence is a given - see descartes
You cannot infer anothers existence from your own - logically you may be mistaken that I (columbo) exists but you cannot be mistaken about your own existence - so if you have a problem inferring another human being exists (see solipsism) god is gonna be way down on the list of provables

We keep coming back to this and shane has pointed it out too -
It isnt gods word he never wrote it and you can have neither apriori knowledge that god did write it, nor empirical evidence to suggest that he did. You certainly therefore cannot argue that its gods word since the original bible is very different compared to today - that being largely due to King James and many other politicians.

Also if someone now wrote about events that happened 200 years ago - if they had no historical documentation for their sources would you take it as fact? I think not but that is how much of the bible was written.

But the bit I have hilighted above - thats the point atheists are making isnt it ?
Surely you dont know this so it would be WISE wouldnt it to have some verification - otherwise you are merely just saying - I believe this is the case with no actual evidence None whatsoever other than that I may or may not be mistaken about it - It just doesnt add up - what you are saying is not illogical in the sense that gods existence is illogical, but illogical in the sense that your mind is not basing itself on the evidence of its senses, or on deductive logic, or on any kind of apriori knowledge.
you are merely asserting that this is true but there is no evidence of that and so you are illogical to believe it since nothing is supporting the statement

 

But even for you and I to come together and agree that three sided objects are called triangles, we are assuming certain things, even just to communicate with each other. This reasoning is still based on certain assumptions about reality. Faith comes prior to our thinking about any subject.

Now, once we understand that a triangle is a three sided object it would be illogical for me to say I have a four-sided triangle.

Good point. If I deny that I exist, who is it that is making the denial?

This is just not true. I don't know who your sources are but the numerous manuscripts that we have are outstanding. How did King James and politicians change the Bible? But even beyond that, is it reasonable to think that if indeed the Bible is God's Word that He could successfully get it to us, the ones who it is written for.

Many of the writers give first-hand accounts and were witnesses of the events to which they testify.

More importantly, if the Bible is God's Word then that puts it on a completely different level than other writings.

But if this is the case, that the Bible is God's Word and God is obviously the highest authority?

There is evidence that points to the God of the Bible, namely His Word, His creation and the creaturehood of man.

 

Ha Ha ! yes - well that is basically an error of logic - you start with the idea that god exists and LOOK !! he must exist this is his universe.
and then the big question - I mean how else did it get here !?
start with that which is closest at hand - something exists. How do I infer that a tree exists? well I see this thing waving around in an apparent breeze - I can touch it see it hear the wind in its branches. By golly I can even pick bits off and eat it. Now how did this get here?
you see the difference - you start with the assumption of god - I start with that which I can test the proof of. You start with god and end with the universe - Why it just makes no sense whatsoever to reason from that which you cannot have any evidence of whatsoever. YOU DONT KNOW THAT GOD EXISTS SO YOU CANNOT KNOW THE BIBLE IS TRUE !! but you do have a world where god seems entirely absent
http://www.godisimaginary.com

But the bible isnt the highest authority - god is -and thats the point - we cant trust the bible - best to get god here huh? I suggest you read a history of the bible and the way it has been altered to suit the whim of politicians over the past 2000 years most notably the monarchs of Europe. Otherwise you are saying that every single bible is a literal translation of the original bible. Also you are saying I will not find one word different in one bible to the next - The Qurran can make that claim but not the bible.
Are you from the USA? I keep saying to myself - "only someone from the USA could think those things" mainly because you tend to forget that the history of Europe is bloody and fraught with the politics of religion. They were dirty mean lowlife these monarchs and thought nothing of altering the bible to suit their political ambition and if the preists refused to teach that bible they killed the preist. so for about a 1000 years before the USA history began, we have christianity in the hands of politicians. There have been points in history where christianity only existed in Europe and it was in the hands of the low life scum that slaughtered their way to power - the British monarchy is one such example. You also have to remember that perhaps until the early 1800's only about 0.01% of people had ever been more than 5 miles from their village or town. They were illiterates who believed the written word was the law - writing was a form of magic or divine genius only the powerful possessed the knowledge to do it. No wonder they fell on bended knees for most of history in Europe the kings would have you killed for not believing it.

Of course it doesnt assume anything about reality
If I say "8 sided object" you know I am talking about any object with 8 sides - even if you had never seen an 8 sided object we could theorise over them and work out potential properties of 8 sided objects. If you now bring a collection of objects to me we can place them in heaps - 8sided - non-8sided. Thats the basis of science - theory - test - proof
In the best known apriori reasoning which is Decartes statement "I think, therefore I am". He begins by saying that it could be that when we observe the world all of our senses are being tricked. He (asks us to imagine that we are all decieved by a demon that likes playing tricks)-basically he says - when I look at my hands and arms are they mine? - I dont know I have to assume that some demon could be changing reality itself - maybe I have no body at all but the demon makes me believe I have.
he finishes this peice by saying words to the effect of :
So we see that the senses can be decieved and how skepticism is my best course of action otherwise my assumptions will lead my mind to error.
I can be skeptical about nearly everything in fact the only things I cannot be skeptical about is that there is something reffered to as "I" and it is being skeptical. I am thinking and if "I" am thinking "I" exist. "Cogito Ergo Sum" = "I think therefore I am". Is one form of apriori reasoning.
It is from this point that scientists begin - given that something exists- now what else is true - I cant just say "this exists therefore god exists" to do so would be ridiculously illogical unless there is evidence within what exists of gods existence - If there were two heaps of paper with written on them all the things that exist and all the things we talk about that dont exist and those words were tested against reality we would have to put the paper with "god" written on it into the pile of things that evidently do not exist. Forget the bible - look for yourself !!!
That is the point did you read the wikipedia article on the term apriori?

 

I'm not sure how this is an error of logic. All of our thinking involves premises from which we draw conclusions. These conclusions must always be found somewhere within the premises. If we accept the premises, we accept the conclusion. These premises are based on assumptions about reality.

For example, scientists assume the uniformity of nature so that they can perform experiments. The fact that within their limited experience they have observed uniformity does not mean that it will hold true tomorrow. Science does not account for this uniformity. It's an assumption held by faith.

There is evidence that points to the God of the Bible. Whether you are willing to accept it or not is another story. If someone begins their thinking holding the belief that God does not exist, He can't exist, then there is a good chance that all evidence presented can be rejected and explained away, though it may be illogically done.

This assumes that the Bible is not the inspired Word of God, the highest authority. The claims of the Bible being altered by politicians are just false. The manuscript evidence is excellent. On what are these claims based?

Again, if the Bible is God's Word could He not preserve it for us?

This does assume certain things about reality, even for you to be able to communicate with me.

 

JLPMGHRS

PLEASE...take yoru rubbish back to the christianity forum.

There is NO HELL

AND THAT IS all that needs to be said.. for without hell.
Christianity is powerless
For if it cant punnish...it cant controll..and that is what
organised religion is all about..controll.

And..as a GOD OF LOVE would not logically TORTURE any
for 'sins' that have no moral victims...Or torture at all..
For TORTURE IS THE JOB OF EVIL
Then u are truely stuck

LOL,,, silly boy

Occam

 

If God is just will he punish people who do evil or will he turn a blind eye to it? Will he right all wrongs? Justice is people who are guilty getting punished for their crimes. The punishment for moral crimes is Hell.

 

JLP

So..to take ONES OWN LIFE.. That which belongs to the person..and
NO OTHER..Is a moral crime?

And one will burn forever for having the audacity to do with it
what one will.?

Occam

 

according to the bible....free will is just an illusion anyways......

 

It seems JLP is unable to answer.

For to say suicide is a moral sin is to say ones life is not ones own.
And people dont like to hear that they dont own what they
believe they do.

Suicide as a moral crime was not the teaching of christ or any appostle

As Christianity became the dominant religion of the Roman empire, however, its views on suicide changed, gradually. In the fifth century, St. Augustine wrote the book The City of God, in it making Christianity's first overall condemnation of suicide. His biblical justification for this was his novel interpretation of the commandment, "thou shalt not kill", and the rest of his reasons were from Plato's "Phaedra". Although this was a humanitarian opposition, some Christians ended up persecuting suicides, degrading their bodies (sometimes by being buried at crossroads with a stake through their body), defaming their memories, and persecuting their families.

In the sixth century, suicide became a religious sin and secular crime. In 533, those who committed suicide while accused of a crime were denied a Christian burial, which was a requirement for going to heaven. In 562, all suicides were punished in this way. In 693, even the attempt of suicide became an ecclesiastical crime, which could be punished by excommunication, with civil consequences following.

So the 'Moral sin' of suicide. Is a farce.
But. How can god's moral law be a farce?
Cause god never set any moral laws on humanity..WE..create them

Occam

 

The position on suicide that Scripture communicates has not been changed within orthodox Christianity. The Bible tells us that man is created in God's image. It's is not up to us to decide when we die, it's up to God. God has a purpose for all of us here on earth which can be recognized once we give our lives to Him and follow Him.

Some times people give their lives for someone else or while in combat, doing what is right. But to take your own life because you are tired of living is waste of what God has given you and what His purposes are for you. If you are following God, you want His will for your life to be done.

I have been depressed many times where I was just sick of living and I still get depressed, so I can relate to people who feel this way. Many times I've just said my life sucks and I really don't feel like living anymore. I'm sure other people have it a lot worse than I do. The Bible says that we are going to have trouble in this life. But the Biblical way of dealing with this is to trust God to sustain you through it. He says He will. He created you, He loves you, He knows what is best for you and He created you for a reason. He wants you to trust Him. This life is also very temporary.

The real issue is whether you die in a relationship with Christ or you die in your sins, guilty before God. Any sin disqualifies you from Heaven and brings you under God's judgement.

 

JLP

The real issue is that u believe what you believe.
Because u want to believe it.
Ignoring any rational method.U force reality into the mould of your
religion.
Occam believes what he believes because his beliefs seem
the most likely of all presented BY reality.

Nowhere in reality is a 'hell' as depicted by your religion observed.
It is totally a thing from human mouths and books.
It is a thing used to scare and bully.

Why were a few, or a single one, made at all, if only to exist in order to be made eternally miserable, which is infinitely worse than non-existence? –Immanuel Kant, “End of All Things”

Salvation is universal because the love of God encompasses all. If God is God and if God is love, nothing is outside the love of God. A place like hell is thus inconceivable. --Jacques Ellul

An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?" --Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

God so loved the world that he made up his mind to damn a large majority of the human race. - Robert G. Ingersoll

The fear of hell is the basis for the Christian faith.--Madalyn Murray O'Hare

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. --Voltaire

Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death. --Albert Einstein

Occam

 

well put