How is Judism, Christianity , Islam brought together under Abraham?

I have a lot of anger towards organized religion, which is what this thread is about. Everyone is free to worship and believe as they wish, I have nothing against that. In fact this thread shows a lot of my problem with it, just about nobody in here knows this central tenet of their own faith, and they attack ME because they don't know.

I don't think there's anything wrong with me being angry at those who perpetuate the organizations/cults that have been the greatest contributers to human suffering/death in all of history.

You may or may not have noticed, but I frequently engage in serious conversation about religion and philosophy, but the op (you may or may not have noticed that he's a metal obsessed half-witted half-troll) asked a lazy ignorant question that, if he's serious, could have been easily answered on wikipedia, google, anywhere. So I don't think that me giving a comedic yet (sadly) 100% serious answer is the least bit out of line.

I mean, for one thing, I'm the ONLY one in this thread (that I've noticed, maybe ukr-cdn or someone knows) who has answered who even knows of the Abrahamic covenant or what it means and how jesus negated it for christians...... All these people come in and tell the story, without the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PART, the fact that god made a pact whereby circumcision would stand in for human sacrifice, and make it sound like god just let everyone off scott-free. And then they act like I'm making some sort of attack below the belt (har) by mentioning that..... or like I shouldn't even care. NO, that's what the shit is about, god demanding abraham kill his son (to check that he loved god MORE than his own son) and at the last minute simply saying that humans need not kill their kids, if they just circumcise them.



One last time: the story of abraham is about circumcision, it's not unfair or unimportant if I bring it up, that's what he did and that's why his story matters and it's why there's even a story about him at all, and I don't think me making light of it makes my point any less valid, considering I'm about the only one who even knows the signifigance of the fucking story, and I don't EVEN identify with a religion that cares about the story. It fact, it's ironic and offensive to me that people who belive things that require them to have an understanding of what transpired between god and abraham would act like I shouldn't tell the story, or like I'm not telling it properly when they don't even know it and it's just about the most basic fact there is about their own ABRAHAMIC religion.

Why do you not want me to discuss it? Because it would be nicer if only people who took it totally seriously enough to forget to mention it because it's barbaric and humiliating to the religions in question spoke in this thread? If you take it seriously, how dare you contradict my post, which is one of, if not THE, most comprehensive post in this thread? I said god hates man? I think that it's pertinent, and if you understood the story or it's context, I think you would agree.

 

Do you not understand that there are people that know god very differently?

There are those within the same sects of the same religion that disagree on how loving he is, or how just he is. Some know god to be a kind friend, that will carry you through the rough patches of life. Some know god to be a stern and just punisher of evil. Some know god to be both. Some know god to be indifferent to humanity on a daily level; they know him to observe, without comment or intervention.
And then, there are those, that know him as a fictional character; one whose power is through faith, alone.

It's just plain disrespectful to those of any other belief not to recognize this disparity.
And don't you dare try to tell me I don't know god. I've known god well throughout my life. From my un-willed, unconscious baptism into Catholism to my chosen false confirmation into Lutheranism, for my mother's sake.
My brother is over in Afghanistan; his wife is back on base in Alaska, teaching their kids to know god kindly; while he must worry about being killed by people who know god very differently.

 

Great post, will rep when my 24hr lockout is up.

 

who is Abraham? Lincoln?

 

What you quoted from me as being wrong...I actually googled that part of my very brief summation and got the information that Muslins believe that Jesus was conceived through sex via (several) searchs. AND by that, I mean I looked at more than one source that said the SAME thing.

I have not read the "holy quran" (is that the correct spelling?)...I can only speak from quoted sources...which no, I do not care do give the various links to. You can google it yourself, and see if you don't find multiple sources saying the same thing I said.

 

It's amazing how when you cut out the crappy jokes and sarcasm your post makes sense. I can see your point so much more clearly in that last statement than in any of the other posts you've made.

The only thing I would say to that now is that you are focusing only on one point of the story, an important piece yet, but not the whole story of abraham. Go ahead and bring up the circumcision part and open it up for discussion, just do it in a way that gets your point across like you just did.

I would like to point out that at no time does God condone human sacrifice, and the only time anyone comes close is the story of abraham. Circumcision becomes the symbol of mans side of the covenant Abraham makes with God and to reduce it to simply God making a cruel demand on man doesn't really describe the purpose that some Christians and Jews see in it.

Now again, discuss away, but your brand of humor made your point disappear in all the sarcasm. Made you look like you were not up for a serious conversation and it wasn't until the post I copied that you actually made it clear what you were trying to say.

 

I did not take your post seriously at all. Like insertrandomusernamehere said it only showed your lack of interest in serious conversation (again) and your frustration and hate against (organized) religion. Since this was started as a serious thread and your cool and funny 'point of view' pops up in every thread that relates to organized religion I find you just to be another judgemental hatemonger, yes, not much different than the by you despised religious ones indeed.

I could say the same to you and be more righteous: If you can't tolerate a thread like this simply read over them. You can be sure we know your judgemental opinion, perhaps this helps you to restrain yourself. :2thumbsup:

Uhm, dude... You are welcome to discuss this topic as much as everyone. You are not attacked for the reason you state in above quote. Since you seem not to be retarded why twist things around like this. You're the one being disrespectful in this thread because you have a problem with organized religion. I don't say organized religions are all jolly and that I dig all of it but I do say the problem you have with it is YOUR problem and if you get frustrated when other people like to have a serious discussion about it, it's also your problem and you will be told when you're being lame, hateful and disrespectful.

 

There are people in this world who know me differently... and not all of them know who I really am. The same is true of God. Some people think they know him and know nothing about who he really is. others see only one side of him, and neglect to know him better.

This is what I mean by having a relationship with God and knowing who he really is. Assuming for one second that he does exist (I know not everyone believes that) than that is how you get to know, the same way you would anyone else in any relationship. All I am saying is that if your angry and bitter at him, your not going to take the time to do anything in that relationship and your just staying stuck on your own emotions.

Everyone has their own believes and your welcome to have them, but God is who he is regardless of what you believe. Just like I am me regardless of what anyone on a forum thinks of me. So in short all I'm saying is, I believe that the way God is described in the Bible is the way God really is, and that the way some people here are talking about God is not the way the Bible really describes him. If you don't like the fact i say that, than sorry.

And as I described above, RoorShack is welcome to say what he wants and open it up for discussion, but the WAY he said it completely covered up any points he was trying to make. I am actually glad it got clarified so we can discuss it.

 

I have to agree with stoney that it doesn't matter how many quotes on the internet you use as your source it is not the most valid way to learn about this subject.

 

I find this fascinating because my research actually lined up with Stoney's view... could you post those links that say he was born by sex? I will have to look them up later if not since.... I'm about to go to church and will be busy most afternoon.

just curious about the discrepency and would like to compare sources. Thanks

 

It's not the most valid source, but it is the quickest for a bunch of people sitting on a forum have a discussion

 

It is, just like it is the quickest way to misunderstand things and gets a thread derailed with futile conflicts about pitiful details :biggrin:

 

What you are saying is that everyone else's opinion, everyone else's experience is invalid. And your reason is completely immeasurable; completely arbitrary; and completely abstract. Atheism/agnosticism have nothing to do with bitterness or anger; you can be angry and bitter and a non-believer; but you can be a believer and be angry and bitter. You can be an angry and bitter Christian. Hell; you can be an angry and bitter terrorist; or you can be a desperate believer that's just trying to make some money for your family, through your violent sacrifice.

You know what my first act of agnosticism was? In kindergarten, we had those little 6 panel picture books that come out of order, and you have to staple them together in the right order (it's a practice of understanding plot development, order of events, etc.) It was the story of Jesus healing a paralytic in a poor neighborhood. He's on his way out and the family begged him; and the person was so sick he had to be lowered through the roof.
It sounded like a very nice story and all; but it was just silly to me. I wasn't sure if it was wrong that I didn't believe it, but I just couldn't take it any more seriously than a Power rangers episode. I knew that people can't just heal each other like that, that they need medicine and doctors; and that some stories are just nice to believe.

God is described in different ways in different faiths; different books; different passages, etc.
There are parts in the Old Testament where God is described as jealous and quick to anger (despite wise Solomon saying that jealousy is wicked). There are parts in the New Testament where he's described to have an infinite love and extreme patience.
Even when I was reading the Bible and deciding whether I had faith or not; I recognized this. The Bible allows room for interpretation; one of my pastors (my favorite pastor) said that that was the beauty of it; some christians seem to blame it on the folly of man; but there's no denying that it's there.

 

Lol so I win.

Have you ever notice how I never reply to your threads nor do I also never reply to your posts. Learn some respect and common sense. If you dont like a poster then have a brain and ignore them.

whos the real loser here?

Oh by the way while you were to stupid and immature to think to use a condoms or some sort of contraceptives
to avoid child birth dont think your so mature and smart on a internet forum.
Be cause if you were you wont of had a kid.

YES! Thank God I dont have kids. Am too smart in wanting one unlike your mistake.



Also stop clinging on my nuts like bbad.

 

Thank you.

 

Asmodean - I agree there are a lot of misconceptions posted on the internet, but that doesn't mean all of it is bad. It's just a matter of knowing how valid your source is and what the problems with it are. The same can be said of referencing people, or books or anything.

JMT I agree that Roorshack says this in a disrespectful and inappropriate way, but insulting him back isn't gonna help matters. I know I havn't been perfect in doing it either, but I do concede when he dropped the "comic" act and actually put forth his point of view he actually made a coherent argument (even if I don't agree with it).

Duck I agree with most of your first paragraph (except one thing I'll mention in a second). We are all people so we can all be angry and bitter, or not anger and bitter, or just trying to survive. I am not trying to make myself sound perfect or better than anyone (one of the problems of posting on a forum is that tone and attitude are not always easy to translate). True Christians are not the people that say their better than everyone. Believe me I guarantee I've done stuff that is immoral and illegal in my life and I am not proud of it (at least not anymore). People are people and the first step for anyone of any faith is to remember that.

Now that being said let me give you an example of what I AM trying to say: If I have a fight with my gf one morning, go to work, get yelled at by my boss, spill my coffee on myself, and over all have a bad day. Than on the way home I get rear ended by you completely by accident and by something that turns out was out of your control. Now chance are I am not going to be very patient about it, and I could either go off on you for rear ending me, or at best be very short and impatient even if I don't yell at you because of my bad day. YOUR experience with me will of course be a negative one, and that will be an interpretation of me that you have. Is it who a really am? NO! Does that make your experience invalid? Also NO. You just simply do not know me well enough to say that I am a violent impatient person, even though you might tell someone else I am. At the point that you classify me at that on so little information is when you become wrong, not that your experience is invalid.

That is what I am saying about God. I have experienced a lot in my life including spending years as both an atheist and an agnostic, and many many more years research comparative religion. I have read parts o the Hindu texts, Muslim texts, read philosophy of Confucious, Buddha, Lao Tsu. I do see things that touch on aspects of God in other religions, but the only that I have found that truly reveals God in all his nature is the Bible. Now I do not say in Christianity as we know it today, I read the Bible for myself and see what it says. There are lots of religious doctrines I disagree with, but I have yet to find a flaw in the bible's description of God. And when people point them out to me I research them and take a look at them for myself.

Here's a perfect example of what I believe. I had a conversation a while ago with a lady that is a lesbian. We had a great conversation that ended up turning into a very emotional debate about what the bible says about homosexuality. There was a lot of misunderstanding and back and forth with each other, so here is the bottom line of it: She believed that God loved her enough and made her the way she was and that God truly loved her and she would go to heaven regardless of it. I agreed with her on all point but told her that God's feelings towards homosexuals (as it is in the Bible) is not to make them that way or condone their actions, but to love them anyway, and warn them that the lifestyle (like any sin including things like lying) can carry consequences in this life.

My conclusion (which may piss off both sides): This lady knew God, knew Jesus and I have no reason to believe she will not go to Heaven. However, her lifestyle choice could carry consequences that make her spiritual life (and perhaps even life in general) more difficult in some way.

I know my writing is lengthy and I can tend to jump around, but the bottom line is here: people have a bad expereince with God and than stop trying to get to know him. Like in any relationship this is a bad idea, because all you get is part of the picture and not the full picture. and if you are one of those rare people that do want the full picture of God, in my life and research I suggest going to the bible.

 

First of all (and again) I do not belive this to be a serious thread, or not entirely so, based on OP, his wording, and his general behavior outside of this thread. Also, with regards to me, my post, and his rep, he did seem to have a specific goal or religion that he wanted vindicated.

That said, (and again) I do not think that light sarcasm removed any bit of meaning from my post. I offered my take or these religions, as you are, and there is no reason that my take should be less meaningfull just because I don't like these religions. It's just as valid a stance as loving the religion, as long as I know my stuff.

And (again), I seem to know at LEAST as much about this religion as any (most, almost all, maybe not quite all) who replied to this thread of found my post to be aggravating. I gave a much more complete view than most who are angered at my post gave, themselves.

And (again) I was really not being disrespectful, it is quite literally my opinion that (assuming for a moment that he's real) god is an evil entity. God created man, knowing the entire pain-filled future of man, and DESIGNING MAN AND THE WORLD TO CAUSE THIS. He made man ignorant and locked him in a garden, knowing full well that he would eat lucifer's apple. For learning, god cast man out and took his eternal life and health. For trying to enlighten man (against his own dastardly wishes) he banished the morning star and his followers, and we now call them evil, though they're clearly the good guys-satan never killed ANYONE, but god killed everyone who has died so far in this world, many for just about no reason..... remember jobe? He chose the hebrews and though he was not that nice to them, he was even worse to all the others.

God's "plan" involves making everyone so that they could not possibly live up to his rules, and then pretending to be real angry when they fail, as he created them to do. If god is omnipotent and worthy of his title, he would have no problem designing the universe so that none of this shit ever went wrong, he literally created the IDEAS of suffering, pain, cruelty, death, etc.

God did not give man free will, SATAN DID, and for this act that god sees as a huge transgression, he is banished from god's presence FOREVER.

So in light of all this, if I did believe in god, I would most certainly consider him to be the evil one. Respect is earned, not given, and being the creator of the universe does not give him a free pass to be the most evil being in all of history, and yet considered good. God has never fixed a problem that he did not create, and he has seldom fixed them fairly or in time, before condemning millions of souls for the actions of SOME men, or that sort of thing.



So as I see it, summing that all up and saying "well god hated man, and..." to set the stage for the particular story I was telling, makes perfect sense, and is really quite nice to this malevolent god. I told my story seriously, I simply didn't tell the whole bible, and made some sweeping (but accurate) assertations about the nature of god, in order to explain his actions.

*edit* you said that if I get frustraited when other people have a serious discussion, that's my problem. The thing is, I did NOT, I came in and offered some of the most serious discussion in this thread, and everyone ELSE had a problem with it, because I told some of their religion's dirty little secrets and they didn't like it, and tried to make it sound like I didn't take the discussion seriously (some even accused me of lying outright).

 

RoorShack do you not see a difference in your last few posts? whether we agree or disagree o the nature of God and his personality, you have explained yourself much more clearly than you did in your earlier posts. You dropped the thinly veiled comedic act and actually expressed your point.

Again I completely disagree with how you interpret God's nature, but I must say it is definetly obvious from your last post you have put time and research into your opinion, obviously know more about this than some Christians I know (sad as that may be). I still feel there is a personal reason you don't like religion, but true or not, at least your making your points clear.. they were never invalid, just want to suggest that maybe your sarcasm was a little heavier than you realized.

that being said let me tell you my understanding of what you said above: God created man to have companionship, but also knew that forced love was not real love. So God created man, and warned him that there would be consequences for a certain action: in this case eating the fruit. God , if he does exist and is all knowing, knew that this action would cause man pain and suffering. Man did not listen to this and than suffered the consequences for it.

Knowing that man once he suffered these consequences, knew that man could not overcome them on his own. So God created a path for man to overcome these consequences because he loved man so much that he did not want them to suffer. Some consequences, like physical death could not be overcome, but God set up a way of death being permanent for their souls.

Now I would be a fool to say that God did not have a hand in killing people but lets look at one example of this: in the land of Cannon, God ordered that the Israelite's wipe out the tribes who lived there. If you study the people who lived there, they worshiped a God named Mollech by putting live children into fires (that's gotta make circumcision look better). The common idea is that after 400 years of such traditions, the people's mind sets were so corrupted by their religion and traditions, that they would not listen or turn away from their immoral practices.

Now once again that probably just makes you feel justified in your feelings towards God, but from another point of view, how do we know that it was not better to try and get rid of those practices? If God does exist and knows more than the two of us, than he's really the only one who can answer that.

 

I suppose the difference between your and my understanding of god's motivation is that I'm of the opinion that since he knows the entire future, and has a divine and complete understanding of cause and effect (probably his way of knowing the the future), I think it is inexcusable of him to create a world that could corrupt man, I see a problem with him creating a man who would do wrong in his eyes. He made everything, so he controls how man/man's mind works, and he controls the stimuli that effect man to do wrong. Being omnipotent he could reveal himself personally to ANYONE, make ANY command he wished, fix ANYTHING, stop ANY baby from starving to death, but he chooses not to, while blaming the people who allow these things to happen.... yet he created these people in such a way that he WOULD do these things.

Also, I have no personal vendetta against religion other than my resentment at all that I see done by and because of religion. I was raised agnostic, with no stories of god or anything like that. I was a teenager before I cared much about religion at all, or did any learning on it/any of them. So I have no personal hurt from religion, but do see a lot of rabid religion, I suppose I do suffer plenty of insults and such (as do any open atheists or agnostics or skeptics in the US) by people who allegedly want to save my soul. This does make me skeptical of the people, as well as the faiths.

I do want to clarify that that's my opinion of god IF he existed-some people disagree with arguing with religious people on religious grounds (and the basis that once you are arguing within their belief system, you have conceeded) but I think that while I can offer evidence against a belief system, it's better to also explain the problems with that system, because otherwise I get told I have an alternate "theory" or something. So I feel the need to explain why these belief systems don't work, AND offer an alternative.


As for islam and jesus:

Islam teaches that jesus was born of a virgin and was the "messiah", a great prophet, but that he was not the son of god (I suppose he was pretty much fatherless..... maybe he was the son of god in some sense, but only in the sense that god put him there-he was not god incarnate. Some muslims view christians as poly-theists, charging that they believe in three gods (the whole godhead thing was originally just meant to be an explanation, I think, reminding of and explaining god's omnipotence)).

He ascended to heaven, but was not martyred, but lifted directly and physically (something like muhammad, who was flown to jerusalem in spirit, and then ascended..... so as to give islam an illigitimate claim to a jewish/christian holy city)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

Full account, from what I saw.

 

Even if we still disagree your last statement was well put. I still feel God gave us free will to choose because it was the only way he could truly have companionship with us, instead of making us do things which would just make us robots.

Also on the subject of how Islam views Jesus, my research came across the same thing. Would still like to hear from Stoney to make sure we have it correct from a Muslim point of view.