If God Has A Plan For Everyone, Then Why Is It Planned For Some People To Be Non-Believers?

Maybe I'd need more context to the first quote because the only other way I read it is that people thought Socrates to be an atheist, which would be impossible to interpret itself, if the people had any information about him.

Any thoughts on the 2nd part of my response?

 

Re the first part of your response, I think Justin was using "atheist" in an earlier sense of not a believer in the true God. The Romans considered the Christians to be atheists because they didn't believe in the Roman gods.

Re the second part: Yes, I think the vast majority of traditional Christians, Jews, and Muslims believe atheists are no good, but the Pope is trying to re-shape their thinking--much to the horror of many in the Catholic hierarchy. I do share the sentiments of the Pope, who is one of my heroes.

Answering for myself, I'd say the only reason for promoting the Christian religion is that it provides a package of beliefs, values and practices that I think are beneficial for the world. This, however, would entail jettisoning a lot of toxic mutant memes that have become entangled with various versions of "Christianity". I'd focus on the teachings and example of Jesus, rather than biblical "inerrancy", creeds, and rewards/punishments in the hereafter. Instead of focusing on the speck that's in the atheist's eye, we should be giving more attention to the log that's in our own eye. In my opinion, too many self-proclaimed Christians are essentially latter day Pharisees--the kinds of people whom Jesus preached against. I should add that the Jesus I'm devoted to is an idealized one, associated with peace, love, understanding and care for the downtrodden and society's rejects--the core of Jesus' message. The historical Jesus may be, as Schweitzer said, "too historical"--a product of a particular time and place that was very different from our own. Buddhism would be my second choice, but each religion has its different emphases. I think religions, like other human belief systems, are loose aggregates of competing memes struggling to survive. I'm hoping that Progressive Christianity is able to hold its own and continue to thrive. I think atheism has important contributions to make as well, and Progressive Christianity has learned from it.

 

I am not simply name dropping. Kierkegaard's book, 'Fear & Trembling' was entirely about Abraham attemtping to sacrifice his son, and the existential crisis it represented, and that was a rather important book in the formation of Existentialism. Freud dealt a fair amount with myth, but he was afraid of the human subconscious---literally, even warning Jung to not go there. Jung's greatest contribution to mankind was his work on the subconscious----and throughout his work he is exploring myth, from biblical to Eastern, and even fairytales.

And it simply isn't Christian scripture that I am talking about.

It is very likely that you made valid connections. You may have thought it was totally fabricated, but nonetheless you were probably tapping into your own ability to identify symbolism---and that was what they were trying to teach. I said that we are alienated from our subconscious, but we are still humans after all, and we are also all very well programmed by our own culture, particularly by High School.

Yes, we can find the shadow in many books. We can find the shadow expressed, and shadow projection through out newspapers. We can grab a bag of popcorn and watch the Presidential elections because sadly they have degraded to a battle of ego's blatantly rich in shadow repression and projection---especially the Republicans.

But that is not what I said---I said it shows the development of the ego, shadow, and ego ideal. Yes there are stories that demonstrate that issue---we could argue that any story of a child developing into an adult would be a story of the growth of the ego-shadow complex. But then where is the ego-ideal? And most such stories are not going to express it as comprehensively as Genesis, with an account of a growing dualistic ethic, and many other elements. No, I don't have it backwards.

To split the World Tree into two---the Tree of Knowledge (representing the feminine (Sexuality---irrationality)) and the Tree of Life (representing the masculine (logos---rationality)), and to then rembove the tree of life as the unobtainable ego-ideal------it is very rare to find such genius in dealing with the World Tree/Tree of Life/World Mountain/World Cave/Axis Mundi...

And as far as the history that genesis mirrors--the rise from our hunter gatherer status into a planter culture----I don't know where any story, beyond other golden age myths, that do this, and many golden age myths do not do this even as good as genesis (partly because they are coming from indigenous cultures that are in earlier stages of development, and thus do not account for, or even need to account for, as much cultural development). When mankind tries to tell the story of his rise from one stage to another, he always does it from the fallacious prejudice that his ancestors were stupid primitive people with barely any intelligence above that of an ape. (We were doing brain surgery (trephining) in the Paleolithic for Christ's sake.) Do you have an example of a book that accounts for such a history so well?

Why turn a few chapters? Right in Genesis there is Cain killing Abel.

First of all, I never said that every chapter is just as rich the next. I am not defending it as the word of God, nor am I saying that it should be the source of moral guidance today. My point is that it wasn’t a bunch of simple superstitious folk.

Second of all, the violent savage parts are full of psychological genius as well. Violence is also an archetype within the subconscious, just as sex is. Again, Kierkegaard wrote a whole book on the existential dilemma of what would have been an act of violence with Abraham and his first son.

But I for one would definitely insist that it would be wrong to interpret the close mindedness of the Bible with any kind of modern justification. In fact, it is the close mindedness that should be a clue to everyone why there are parts of the Bible that should not be followed.

We don’t have any historical accounts of the cultural evolution of man from hunter-gatherer to planter. We have evidence, and clues, and we have myth, and of course we have a few people who live as our hunter gatherer ancestors did, and we have many more who live as our planter ancestors did.

Some Jungian psychologists would argue that they were closer to collective memories of that time in our development. Regardless, the Canaanite tribes that became the Jewish tribes traveled considerably around the region, and surely came across indigenous people of the times. Originally they themselves were Goddess worshippers following the Astarte/Astoreth/Asherah/Asher complex of Goddesses and others. They certainly knew that. They carried with them their own myths, and were influenced by many myths in the region. The tower of Babel, and the myth of the great flood are all over the region. Golden Age myths are universal---and they are pretty uniform in their motifs, and other story dynamics.

Archeologists and anthropologists pay close attention to mythical accounts as they often have truth buried within them. There is the legend of Troy for example. Greek myths have been shown many times to be supernatural accounts symbolizing and accounting for actual historical events, and achievements. And actually, as far as written records are concerned, there are many ancient sources that tell us that the Hittites were the record keepers and librarians of the region, and that they had many scholars and a very extensive library in many languages maintained by the Hittites until it was destroyed (not to say that there was an account of man’s transition from Hunter Gatherer to Planter, but certainly other aspects of history were well maintained).

For one thing, the Old Testament provides a pretty good history of a masculine-dominant culture’s war against the Goddess cultures of the region.

Now to clarify, I am talking about cultural evolution, not human evolution, therefore I AM IN NO WAY SUPPORTING THE ANTI-SCIENCE OF CREATIONISM.

The philosophy of phenomenology, by many interpretations, would hold that Harry Potter, like any piece of literature, film, art, etc. holds a lot of symbolic significance garnered from the current collective consciousness----much like a dream holds important significance for an individual---only in the symbolic language of the subconscious.

But all I was saying is that the Bible wasn’t written by a simple-minded superstitious people. Even plot-wise, it’s not that bad… I never said that it should be a guide to how we should live our lives, or structure our legal system, or anything like that.

As far as what benefit it may have for people today---on the one hand there is the post by Okiefreak (#194). On the other hand, the Bible, from the right perspective helps us see the follies of the past…

As I stated before:

The Bible, being a product of that very Post-Planter Culture, is rich in these very divisive dynamics. For our culture to survive, for man to evolve, for religions to evolve, for atheist and theist alike to evolve, we need to understand these dynamics for what they are.

I am not saying that there is no great value in it for believers---obviously there is. And there are truths in it that will always be true. But there is also these dynamics. And then you have this message of love in the New Testament-----perhaps if we could raise this message above those divisive Post-Planter Culture dynamics----wouldn’t that make them more true to their original intent?

 

Just a quick blurb on the anti-science of creationism.

Do we have a design and creative effect on the course of our lives?

If so where does this motive element come from if it is not inherent in the emergence of matter regardless whether or not superfluous to it in any way. That is a vegetable doesn't seem to concerned about whether you exist or not but it is certainly profoundly complimentary that vegetables exist for you.

 

I would say most definitely yes---it is part of our own existential freedom and free will. It is why quantum mechanics cannot escape the role of a conscious observer in a probability wave collapse. In fact there was just another experiment done which used Helium atoms----and once again the results were that conscious observation of a position results in probability wave collapse.

However nature has its path--and it is manifested through quantum decoherence. The empirical sciences demonstrate what this path has been, and is. From the time of Darwin we have actually watched evolution take place in, for example, several insect species. If you follow the path of evolution in just the way the plant and animal kingdoms are organized, it is pretty amazing.

Is the dynamic of decoherence void of consciousness? That is the real question.

 

Is gods plan self actionable or is it up to humans to continue muddling along as we have for perhaps several millions of years? I cannot determine an end game relative to past
or present performance/s of humanity regardless of dogma, ancient or modern.

What, for example, was gods plan for those of the jewish faith in the early 40s of the last century? What's the coherently thought out plan now and if there is such,is it working to any ones benefit?

Look, I understand that I don't posses an overwhelming amount of brain power---but can ANYONE explain to me what this so-called plan is and what it's value can possibly be, given the powers of observation most of us have? Simple, simple question.

 

Oh it is very simple really... The ratings for World War II, for example, on the Heavenly Network was very high. And God's bookies made a fortune over that one----most of the war the odds heavily favored Hitler.

 

I asked for examples from scripture; not commentary from believers. You quote the Pope but must know that literally hundreds of millions of christians do not consider him any kind of authority on christianity. I'm surprised you quoted him at all, you don't strike me as a catholic to say the least. There's fundamental issues with relying on the vatican for dogma that are even greater than relying on scripture; relying on the vatican is just passing the buck to a group of wealthy, secretive men in an organization with an interesting history to make the decisions and interpretations for you.

Show me in scripture, either christian or muslim, where it says that non-believers are just dandy and they will be fine in the end.

 

actually the prophecies in the OT concerning the Hebrews/Jews are one of the more compelling things in the Bible because their history has pretty much followed the prophecies.
hated by all, chased from place to place, just the name "Jew" has become a derogatory slur, etc, etc,.

so I'm not sure what the plan is supposed to be, but it certainly is following the script.

you see guys, this is where actually knowing something of the subject matter helps.

 

Lame request as far as determining what may be so. Good one for insisting on what must be so in your estimation. What practical consequence do you imagine it demonstrates?

What is in jeopardy?

What represents security or success?

Show me where it is guaranteed that anyone in the visible world who breaks the law will not face consequences even unto life in prison without possibility for parole or death. Isn't the promise of the civilized world that if you obey the law you are protected by it and if you break it you are liable to it? If you spend the rest of your life in prison based on a judgement then in time it is a practical eternity. What does the attorney general of the u.s. say, no matter how long it takes or how far we have to go, we will find you and bring you to justice.

I can show you a passage that suggests that belief is not even the criteria in, not everyone who says to me lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but whoever does the will of my father who is in heaven. Many will say on that day did we not prosphesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name and make many mighty works in your name and then I will declare to them depart from me, I never knew you, evil doers...and as you have denied a little one even so much as a sip of water you have done also to me

First off what is heaven. Heaven is a perceptive state being described always in likeness, i.e. heaven is like...

What does the will of the father look like that creates a harmonic accord with this perceptive state? (god's plan as relevant to the idea of god's plan in this discussion)

Ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened to you, seek and you will find. (first seek a higher quality of attention)

Don't be anxious for your future but be equal to the tasks of the day. (learn to quantify correctly your experience)

Judge not lest you be judged. For with the judgement you pronounce you will be judged and the measure you give will be the measure you receive. Do not be concerned with what the other guy is doing and don't try to force you designs on him, mind your own manners (resist the temptation to qualify)

Do not judge by appearances but rather learn to use right judgement.

as you remove the barriers to clear perception you have erected

the truth sets you free

then you become a beacon of instruction

What is the ideal?
thy kingdom come

How is it accomplished?
thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven

How so? (inquire)
give us this day our recognition of supersubstansalis, (real substance)
let me not be distracted but diligent in this cause
I am forgiven as I forgive and am judged as I judge
for thine kingdom and glory is in me and has been forever

As above so below.

God has a plan accomplished in creation, what is real is genuinely real.

There is also a plan for improved consequences in life or for easing the troubled mind. The troubled mind a possible consequence in a realm of probability or the zone of free expression.
We may experience life more abundantly. A mind without anxiety is kind.

If you take to the advice given it will give you a solid perspective on reality in a world generally distracted and confused, If not, you may find you been lookin for love in all the wrong places as the stock market crashes or your favorite soap opera character gets killed off.

 

Well I may not understand decoherence in a quantum sense but I do know we sometimes bore easily or insist on shuffling the cards.

 

Forgive them they know not what they do equals let the verdict be innocent by reason of insanity.

The problem with adults is they think the monsters they imagine are real because they are adults.

 

It is so that men persecute men in general and no one is safe in this environment. It is also so that prophesy is fulfilled through intent. Such and such is done specifically to fulfill prophecy. This aspect obviously can be a two edged sword as apocalyptic minded soldiers have their hands on weapons of immense destruction. In the same turn no one knows the hour of his coming because love doesn't wait on time but only on invitation.

There is a fact of timing not often appreciated as we tell ourselves we will do something. The only time anything actually happens is now.

 

And what part do animals have in God's plan, or insects, or bacteria or viruses?? Imagine (with the last one) you were put on this earth to kill.

With the OP's question about God's plan for non-believers: God doesn't interfere with free will, so he didn't make you a nonbeliever. You left.

But what if you never believed it in the first place? What if atheist parents told you (like what my best friend told his daughter) that God is make-believe for adults?

Besides, people say faith is a gift from God...

Besides, if he has a plan for you (to be rich haha) then he's still interfering with free will! Some people even say "God works through people." Or some people pray that their football team will win.

This is terrible.

 

For God to make one team win would require setting up the orher for failure would it not? And for one person to have success generally requires the failure of some number of others. Not everyone can have it all.

 

I like that, Ace.....In order for someone to win, someone else loses......that is so true.....

and in humor....whose team am I on? yours?

 

Feels like an appropriate time for some of the great sports "philosophers"

http://youtu.be/b5-iJUuPWis
http://youtu.be/TSKcBAq6Y5o

 

http://youtu.be/-oSFYxDGKy8

http://youtu.be/EB5-yJM3vJc

 

I certainly hope so ... the other team is the wrong one to be on.