If the Christian God is truly all knowing...

oh no not at all, I'm in total control -

Just God already knows what I'm going to do.

 

If God already knows what you're going to do then you have no control in the matter, you have to do it or else God really isn't omniscient, unless you happen to be God yourself. Is that what you're trying to say?

 

I think what neodude is saying is that, even if someone knows what you are going to go, it doesn't mean that what you do isn't your choice.

Imagine yourself looking at a photo album, back at different times in your life. You know how your life turned out, and you can see by looking at these photos how one choice or another brought you to this point.

Does the fact of observation really mean that, at the times displayed in those photos, you had no free will? That because someone (you) knows the end result of these choices, they were somehow not choices at all.

So imagine God at the end of Time. He can look back on everything that brought the universe to that point. He can know it. But to me it seems like a leap to state that, because God knows how things went down (in any given past), He was in control of them and you, the individual, was not.

There is an alternative, which is almost the opposite: that one could be omniscient in a moment, but not be able to see the future. One could predict the future, based on knowledge of everything present, with accuracy diminishing the further away from "now" you go.

Either way, free will is not compromised by the mere act of observation. Even if God is looking back from the end on an infinity of human history, we still choose what to have for breakfast this morning.

There is another possibility still, which is that God isn't omniscient and all-powerful, but is just really really smart, really really powerful, etc. Obviously someone powerful and wise enough could be called "all-powerful" or "all-knowing" by a relatively weak, ignorant species. Maybe God can see everything you do, but is prioritising to keep an eye on important shit.

 

What seems important shit to us, may not be that important to God. I'd say God views everything with perfect equality.

Personally, I think that unless we say part of God chooses to forget then our free will would be compromised by His knowledge of future events.
I don't think God sees the cosmos from either the beginning of time (if we accept there was in fact a beginning, and I'm not sure there was) or the end of time. He transcends time, stands outside of it.

Either way, our so called free will is in fact quite limited. We're very much conditioned by many different factors - genetics, cutural imprints, in my view also samskaras (results of karma) from past existences and a host of other things.
Still, we do have some relative freedom I think, but only within definite boundaries.

 

Wouldn't that make him uncaring? And I wasn't trying imply that I know what God considers important. I can't know that, just as you can't.

How, if our free will is a component of their fruition?

If he's as omnipresent as you say then he'd see the universe from every point in time simultaneously. This would, in human perception, manifest as a continuum. Terry Pratchett talks of Death "remembering things before they happen"; he is humanised, anthropomorphicised, which is possibly why he is aware that he is remembering.

But no, the only way for God to be all-knowing as you describe is for Him to witness everything as it has happened from the end of Time. If He witnesses it from the viewpoint of the eternal present, He would be predicting the future, but not knowing it. The only way to see the future with certainty is to look back on it from a later future, to see a time when it had already happened and had consequences.

OK, but you know that free will being curbed by those things isn't evidence of predestination, just of other people having equally free will, right? Your mother has sex with one man rather than another and you have a different DNA map. If you grew up in Bahrain rather than Birmingham you'd be molded by a different culture. The fact that we do not have control over these things ourselves does not indicate that no-one ever did.

And, on the other hand, since we have no way of knowing what would have happened if we'd made a different choice, what appears to be free will could easily be predestination, or vice versa.

 

No, that is not what neodude is saying, he is saying that God, who is omniscient, knows what you’re going to do, not just anybody. Omniscience means what you know is a fact that is always true. Thus if an omniscient God looks into the future and sees what you will have for breakfast, that is what you will have and you have no choice in the matter.

Sorry, this is fallacious reasoning because we are not talking about looking into the past at decisions already made but at the future at decisions yet to be made. So we are talking about God, who is omniscient looking into the future, not us (who are not omniscient) or God (who is) looking into the past.

An interesting thought, although it doesn’t seem to fit the picture, as God is considered to always be omniscient and his “predictions” do not seem to diminish with distance into the future.

If the observer is an omniscient God and he uses his omniscience to know what you will do in the future, not only is your free will compromised, you no longer have free will and you will have to do what was foreseen and you have no choice in the matter.

Once again we are not talking about God looking back but God looking into the future.

Then he really couldn’t be defined as God could he? Seeing as omniscience and omnipotence are part of the definition of what God is


PS As for your statement: “Either way, free will is not compromised by the mere act of observation.” in Science it is a well know fact that observation affects the results.

 

Well, you obviously know a lot more about the way God behaves than I do. I am merely conjecturing possible modes of operation that would allow for both omniscience/omnipresence and free will.

Of course, free will still exists if God can see the future. He is looking at the future that results from your free will. I don't see a conflict here.

I will, however, be interested to see if neodude agrees with you about what he is apparently saying, as he seemed to be disagreeing with you, which I doubt he'd do if he was saying what you describe here.

Sorry, but you're implying that you do what is foreseen because it is foreseen. This seems like a case of the tail wagging the dog; the fact that someone can see your future actions does not imply that you don't control your present ones, any more than it implies that you won't be in control of your future ones. If the observer of the future doesn't intervene in that future, but remains passive, then he is simply viewing how things will turn out as a result of your free will.

Hate to sound pissy, but who's "we"? You seem to have a very definite, rigid notion of omniscience that excludes possible mechanisms, but seeing as we're talking about an entirely theoretical concept that no human has ever experienced, the only reason "we are not talking about God looking back" is because you're refusing to do so.

There are things God cannot do though. I'll trot this one out, I know it's an old chestnut, but if God is everlasting then one thing God can't do is kill himself

Myths and legends from other cultures talk of gods battling, defeating one another (even if they are then resurrected immediately, only to be defeated again). I don't know how one defines God, but a god doesn't have to be omnipotent or omniscient.

I do wonder if there's anything in the Bible that actually says, outright, that God is omniscient and omnipotent, or whether it has simply emerged as being the best explanation for how he is able to do the things that it says he does. An entity wouldn't have to be omnipotent to do everything God does in the Bible, just immensely powerful; it could be that God can only do what the Bible says he can, but if it came to wiring a plug, he'd have to call someone in

Seeing as this is a postscript I won't devote too much time to it, but:

1) Observation can affect results; it does not determine them.
2) The are two kinds of observer effect - roughly, there's the one about quantum physics, and the one about anthropology/sociology and "contamination" - and it is not a good idea to conflate the two as they are only superficially similar.
3) "In Science", as you put it, the very fact of declaring it a well-known fact would surely demand that

What I am saying though is that passive observation of the future does not indicate that those who created that future had no free will or self-determination. The future exists as it does because of their free will in the present. Someone in the present then observing those effects does not "rewrite" the present!

I can't see what's so hard to understand about that. You don't have to agree, because they're both valid arguments - which is why the free will vs. predestination debate has been raging forevers - but honestly, I'd expect you to at least acknowledge that I'm not being ignorant or fallacious in making this argument, because I know that I'm not.

Plus I am sure there is some reference to God warning someone of a future event in the Bible. Assuming I'm right, why would God bother if the future could not be changed by that person's free will (which, being omniscient, he would obviously know)?

 

I think the first mistake in the reasoning being done here is a linear understanding of time.

 

Maybe, but even within a linear understanding of time, there is scope for free will and omniscience. An omniscient knows everything that exists to know, but everything doesn't exist because he knows it.

 

Your point is complete bullshit, all religions, or most anyways follow the belief that god gave humans free will.

Say not: "It was God's doing that I fell away";
for what he hates he does not do
Say not: It was he who set me astray";
for he has no weed for wicked man
Abominable wickedness the Lord hates,
he does not let it befall those who fear him.
When God, in the beginning created man,
he made him subject to his own free choice

-Book of Sirach

God is supposed to be all knowing in the fact he sees all that goes on anywhere in the universe, but god cannot corrupt free will once he had given it.

 

If you hate to sound pissy perhaps you should read and try to understand what the thread is about before you start posting. Here, since you didn’t read it, is what “we” are talking about:

Here, if you read carefully, you will see the thread is about an omniscient God who can look into the future, not about God looking into the past, I suggest if you want to talk about God looking into the past you start your own thread on that subject.

So you see it is not me refusing to talk about God looking back it is you refusing to stay on the topic of the thread.

 

So Well Said. I Really Enjoyed Reading This Response. :iagree:

 

Ok , God knew Adam would fall , but adam HAD to fall in order to proceed with life...had he NOT fallen he would have remained as a child not knowing anything and not growing as a human at all.
And even after Adam fell God STILL loved him and looked out for him...God allows us to make our own decisions...good and bad.

 

I am not refusing to stay on topic. Why is it so hard to imagine that, in order to see future events and be certain that they will occur, you would need to look at a time after they have occurred? Why is that not obvious? I am offering a mechanism for seeing the future (by being in the further future and looking back on it) which does not imply the absence of free will. I am doing this because YOU suggested that omniscience of God implies the absence of free will. So please don't tell me that I'm posting off-topic, when I am only following the same tangent you're on.

I don't see much point in pursuing this topic if you're so insistent on knowing the operations of God. I know that you can't know you're right, and I really think you're just being stubborn. If you can respond to what I am suggesting with anything more substantial than "THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THOUGH " then that'd be great.

 

Actually what is obvious is that looking back at the past is not seeing the future it's .......looking back at the past!

Now if you want to talk about God who is omniscient actually seeing and foretelling the future, things that have not already happened and it’s affect on free will that would be nice.

 

Sorry, but I'd be far happier to agree to differ if I thought you understood what I was trying to say, and you're not really showing evidence that you do.

In order to predict the future with 100% accuracy, the future must be set in stone. Either it has already happened, or it is predestined, which would imply the inability for God to change it (thus NO omnipotence!). The only way for that to be true is for the future to have already happened. So there must exist a point when all that will happen has. The only guaranteed way to know the future is to exist at that point. An omnipotent, omnipresent God would presumably exist at every point in time as well as space, thus enabling Him to be omniscient. Being able to predict the future is just a party trick, but is there really any reason to imagine that God sees into the future to be omniscient, when He clearly wouldn't need to if he is omnipotent and omnipresent?

Please acknowledge that you actually get what I'm saying here. I just want to know that you understand and disagree, and that you're not simply being stubborn. There is nothing about the original post that excludes what I'm saying as far as I can see. You are insisting that God has to see the future to be omniscient. I am saying that that simply isn't the case. If you want to refute it you can, but if you're just going to insist that I'm not discussing the topic you want to, well, I can't really help you with that one!

 

And how does free will fit into this picture?

 

Or hell is a misinterpretation. Or God knew he would eat it and created man regardless, and our feelings of injustice are created by gaining intelligence through the apple. Maybe God has logic beyond human understanding which justifies his choices. Maybe life would not go on as intended by him without such a foundation as the past provides.

Also, the sacrament of baptism is intended to cleanse Christians of the original sin caused by Adam. God allowed redemption also through the covenant (providing the 10 commandments to Moses), and then Jesus.

You could then argue for the innocent lives of those lost during the great flood story of Noah's Arch, or Babel, or Sodom and Gomorrah, in which case I will share with you the idea that they worshiped false idols, and were thus by no means innocent. "They should have known in their heart to worship the correct God"

*I'm not a Christian, I'm just arguing using the viewpoints some of them provide.

Unless one has the input value of every atom in the universe, and a formula for being (which physics has the intention of creating). I do agree with the "God being above time" concept, at least that it's a good explanation for those who believe in God.

You have none. Your choices are a result of your past, and those things which currently fill your mind. Your thoughts are thrown into your head, but not by you.

Speaking of your head and all things inside it, maybe you should re-read Hoat's post, he explained how free will could still exist even if God knew the future.

Being that God created all that is, he could have surely made existence work in an entirely different manner, no?

 

The way I already explained to you. If you view the future of now from the end of time (when it's already happened), free will did exist to create that future. Or at least could have. All I am arguing is that omniscience doesn't imply the impossibility of free will, especially if God is also omnipotent and omnipresent.

If you want a more indepth explanation than that, go back a page or two because I totally already wrote this out once.

 

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong. You seem to be saying that for God there is no past, present or future because he lives at all times and places at the same time. Thus he is able to look back into the past from the future and tell those living in the past what their future will be.

It would seem then, that from the very beginning of time and space, that at the same instant the very end of time and space would have had to come into existence. It would also seem to mean that no part of it can be changed because it already exists as it would be seen from the very end of time and could have been seen that way from the very beginning of time.

Thus from this view point it is difficult for me to see how free will is a factor in the universe other than God’s free will in creating it in the first place.

It would seem that what God can see from the end of time is the same as what he would see at the beginning of time and the two things would have to be the same.

So if God is looking at what you will have for breakfast tomorrow from the beginning of time and at the same time looking at what you had for breakfast tomorrow from the end of time what he sees would have to be the same thing, thus no matter what, you have no free will in the matter you must eat what he has seen in this case and you can not choose to eat some thing different.

Now you have said that what God sees is a result of the choices we make, our free will. The trouble I see is, if that is true, those choices would have had to be made by us before the beginning of time, before we existed so we could make those choices.

How am I doing so far?