If the Christian God is truly all knowing...

Well no, in most cases they're just an accurate perception that one cannot be all-powerful within the realms of logic because some things that a person can do are mutually exclusive of each other. It shouldn't give anyone an ego boost. But then if you say it and someone insists that God can do these logically impossible things (presumably inventing logic just to defy it?), it's hard not to feel a bit smart by comparison.

 

Within the realms of logic are the key words there.

To be honest, that wasn't what I was trying to address. I was getting at people who are for free will, and who say that God is "not allowed" to do perfectly logical, even mundane tasks, such as lying. Not sure why "God" would need to lie, but I'm also not quite sure why God would be completely unable to do so.

For the record though, I don't think logic is all encompassing. And whatever God is, surely God encompasses logic, and not the other way around.

 

Well yes, they are. But if it were possible for someone to defy logic, it would no longer be logic, merely reason.

Well, God could, for example, lie to us because, being omniscient, He knew we wouldn't do what He said if He told us the truth. That way, He can lie without being a shit for doing it. Then again, if God created everything from The Word, anything He said would be true by definition, and "lies" would just be Him changing His mind .

I just don't get why God would make up rules for the Universe just to break them.

It just makes a lot more sense that God is just really really really really really really really really really really really really powerful, rather than omnipotent. I mean, if He's in battle with Satan, and since there's no suggestion that Satan is omnipotent, if He was omnipotent surely He could just, you know, win.

 

'Fraid I disagree. Logic and morality encompass God. It's not a limitation on God to say (S)he can't make a square circle. If we've come to the point that people think God ought to be able to do so, we've reached a point where we need to stop pretending to be engaged in rational discourse. We might as well just babble. Likewise(though this is admittedly more controversial) things are fair, just, true, compassionate, etc., because they are, not simply because God says so. If God said it's right to rape women, torture innocent children, etc., that wouldn't make it right. It would make God wrong. I know what you're going to say next. What about all the rape, torture, pillage, etc., that the Old Testament seems to condone? Yes, that was wrong. To try to rationalize it leads to moral deformity.

 

Or maybe it would be a different level of logic. Just not our logic.

There is a rational way, and an irrational way to think of God. This applies to atheist as well, since even the most militant atheist must concede that the idea of God exists. You cannot deny that something exists if you don't have an idea of it in the first place.

If the god you are thinking of isn't omnipotent, then I would say that you aren't thinking of God. God must be omnipotent, or else it isn't God, at least to our level of reality.

 

God cannot lie, he is a perfect spirit creature.
God and Satans challenge is not just about humans
it is also about the angels, 100's of millions of angels
who witnessed satans disobedience and the challenge that he could be a better God. It is now being played out on the world stage for all to witness.

 

How would that be even possible? Without God, there would be no logic and morality. Without logic and morality, there would still remain God.

I totally get where you are coming from, but how can you say that perhaps square circles exist, and you just can't perceive/understand them? I know it's sort of irritating, but I think it's actually something to consider. I really dont' think there are any "rules" when it comes to God.

I'm really not at all concerned with the Old Testament.

I'm convinced that right and wrong are purely subjective. Most Christians believe that God's word decides what is right and wrong, and that God is absolute. So for the sake of debate, if God said it was right, then what would make it wrong?

 

This sentance troubles me. As an "imperfect human" how can you possibly understand what perfection would imply?

 

All creations from God are perfect.Adam, Jesus, the trees, the mountains, the plants, the animals.go outside and take a real good look at anything not man made and come back to this thread and tell me it is not perfect.

 

First omnipotent and omniscience are two different things.

 

yes they are; and being two examples of perfection, they are also both qualities of God.

 

ok.

it isn't.

 

like what?

 

I said that the Bible which is purported to be God's word says; it is impossible for God to Lie. That would, if you believe the Bible, mean that God himself said that it was impossible for him to lie. Take it up with him!

 

Very good, then please explain why you seem to be using them interchangeably.

 

I feel like this discussion is about to become so abstract that no one is going to gain anything from it.


Anyhow, if you want to know where I stand, it's my belief that anything that can be perceived isn't perfection.

 

I wasn't aware that I did.

In any case, I'm not interested in yet another semantics debate. Everyone else seemed to understand me perfectly fine. If I've made some mistake, then I apologize.

 

getting to know God is as simple as a blade of grass

 

Do you believe that perfection exsists? If so how did you perceive that?

Also I would like to know how anything in "Nature" other than man is imperfect. It seems that all of "Nature" other than man is fulfilling the role that it was designed to do perfectly and without any flaws that I can see.

 

I think that's entirely untrue.

Perhaps becoming aware of the true nature of the blade of grass (illusory) can facilitate the upliftment of consciousness required to acheive God-realization, but ultimately, a fixation upon any sort of material or perceivable object is counter productive.

I honestly believe this is what the metaphor of Satan in the bible is attempting to address.