If you do not believe in God, you must not have read the Bible

Your questions are so lacking in intelligence as to hardly warrant a response.

As to this first question, why would ANYONE "get involved" in something horrible at all? That's so easy as to call into question your own powers of reasoning. First of all, the "Trinitarians" you are referring to were not truly participants in God, partakers of the divine dispensing, but merely religious people, holding to religious teachings and tradition, within the context of a religious hierarchy. You have to be able to see the difference between a religious organization and the Body of Christ, an organic, living entity. You may label anyone whatever you wish, but it doesn't change the facts.

The Catholic organization has always been just that, an "organization", not the living Body of Christ, the church. It came about when Ignatius thought it would be a "good idea" to establish titular "bishops", around the time of the religious persecution from the Jews on the early church. Having established, then, a hierarchical structure, not based on life, not based on maturity, but on political appointment, the "church" lost its vitality, it's living, organic connection to the Head, Christ. Having lost that connection, and having become a political/religious organization, continuing through the will of man, and not the power of God, you have seen many evils come from that source, throughout the centuries.

What you call "Trinitarians" were not people of God, but people of religion, doing whatever they wished, according to their instinct to preserve their religious traditions. This brought forth many evils, and continues to do so to this day.

This is not to condemn the believers that are imprisoned within that evil system. One day they also will be freed from their imprisonment, to fully participate in the Body of Christ, the genuine church, according to God's plan.

People do get used to being "cared for", unfortunately, and in doing so, have an atrophied human spirit, unaware, in a stupor, unable to function as members of the Body of Christ, even though they be genuine believers.

But it was the hierarchy that performed the atrocities, not the common believers.

So, what you call "Trinitarians" is truly a misnomer. You blame the idea of God being the Father, Son, and Spirit, rather than the real cause.

Neither you nor I have the historical background to be able to prove how many "Trinitarians" were not involved in the carrying out of such atrocities, and it is doubtful whether many genuine believers considered themselves in the light of this term.

You use your nose every day, but you don't always call it your nose. You refer to smelling something, but you don't say,,"My nose just smelled something", you merely say "I smell something". People don't go around wearing badges saying "Trinitarian". They simply find, through experience, that when you pray to the Father, the Son is there also. The Father brings us to the Son, who is His expression, humanly speaking. Without the Spirit, neither the Father nor the Son would be real to us, neither could we partake of the divine nature, as Peter puts it in 2Peter 1:4. The divine life would be foreign to us, residing in heaven, and not on earth. God would remain distant, and merely a thought in our minds. God would essentially have to stay in His "heavenly motel", rather than making His home in us, as the New Testament repeatedly reveals.

No wonder some, who proclaim the "Trinity", prefer to keep God distant, distinct, and merely objective. They are anti-Christ, as Christ today has become a life-giving Spirit, and they prefer a "Holy Ghost", who is truly an imaginary apparition, "representing" God, rather than being the very God, reaching us, visiting us, indwelling us, imparting His life to us.

This is what the bible reveals. It's not important what you call people. What is more important is what they are, and what they practice. If they pray to a distant God, there is something wrong, whatever label you have affixed to their lapel.

So, no, "Trinitarianism" didn't perform atrocities. A religious hierarchy did.

This is idiotic. These events happened hundreds of years ago. It's obvious that the inquisition was from Rome, and the various papal authorities were involved. This has nothing to do with the true nature of a genuine Christian.

Are you saying, first of all, that I am required to go back in time and interview those who were involved, taking polls, to find out just what each one believed? The atrocities were not due to a belief in God being Triune, but rather, due to a religious tradition and hierarchy, that had an invested interest in their continuing existence, for profit.

Rock stars commonly have a fan base. Some of those in that fan base are nothing short of embarrassing to the stars involved. Some even become dangerous, stalkers and such. Does this disqualify the artist?

The Catholic "church" does not represent God. Is this not clear? If this organization is what you call "Trinitarians", then you are mistaken. More so, they are tritheists, due to the continued fact that for the most part, they only hold to a doctrine and not to the reality, Christ.

Paul refers to these in Colossians 2:

19 And not holding the Head , out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God.

Jesus, a "Jew", in John chapter 4, confronts a woman at a well, while His disciples had gone away. The exchange goes as follows:

5 So He came to a city of Samaria called Sychar, near the piece of land that Jacob gave to Joseph his son; 6 And Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from the journey, sat thus by the well; it was about the sixth hour. 7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, Give Me something to drink. 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9 The Samaritan woman then said to Him, How is it that You, being a Jew, ask for a drink from me, who am a Samaritan woman? (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God and who it is who says to you, Give Me a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water. 11 The woman said to Him, Sir, You have no bucket, and the well is deep; where then do You get this living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank of it himself, as well as his sons and his cattle? 13 Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone who drinks of this water shall thirst again, 14 But whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall by no means thirst forever; but the water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water gushing up into eternal life. 15 The woman said to Him, Sir, give me this water so that I will not thirst nor come here to draw. 16 He said to her, Go, call your husband and come here. 17 The woman answered and said, I do not have a husband. Jesus said to her, You have well said, I do not have a husband, 18 For you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly. 19 The woman said to Him, Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain, yet you say that in Jerusalem is the place where men must worship. 21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship that which you do not know; we worship that which we know, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But an hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truthfulness, for the Father also seeks such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truthfulness. 25 The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when He comes, He will declare all things to us. 26 Jesus said to her, I, who speak to you, am He.

Jesus refers to the reality of worship here, the "true worship", which is not in "Jerusalem", nor here, nor there, but in spirit, and why? Because "God is Spirit". Worshipping God is not a matter of "going somewhere", but a matter in the human spirit. Paul states, in ICorinthians 6:17, that in a genuine believer, the human spirit and God's Spirit are one, and that we are "joined to the Lord".

The Jews of the Old Testament could only see the foreshadowing of Christ to come. Now, today, we have the reality, in a living Spirit, "that" which was promised of old. This Spirit conveys all that God has accomplished in Christ, all that He has attained and obtained, in His human living, in His death, in His resurrection, His ascension, and His enthronement. This is Paul's word, not mine. Paul states in Ephesians that we, today, are together with Christ, "in the heavenlies". Why? Because our spirit is connected to the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. Christ has become the true "Jacob's ladder", joining heaven to earth and earth to heaven. Within every genuine believer, born of the Spirit, the real "holy of holies", in which God's presence dwells, within us.

Most Jews never had the consciousness to know that God the Father came to them in the Son, nor did they care for the Spirit, as Jesus Himself testified many times, because "their hearts were hardened". So the writer of Hebrews testifies:

7 Therefore, even as the Holy Spirit says, `` Today if you hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the provocation, in the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me and saw My works for forty years. 10 Therefore I was displeased with this generation, and I said, They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways; 11 As I swore in My wrath, They shall not enter into My rest!'' 12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief in falling away from the living God.

The Jews were not even habitually faithful to the God they believed in, ffs. A change was needed, and eventually, that change came, in Christ Jesus, the man.

"Today",,,

 

How unChristian of you to say so. I guess Jesus was on to something when he said by their fruitage you will know them.

Again how unnecessary and unChristian of you to say so.

Perhaps but that doesn't change the fact that they worshiped a triune god and believed they were doing that god's will.

It is interesting that you would call out the Catholic Church, since they are the ones the came up with the concept of the triune god, in about the 4th century, that you put so much faith in.

I would agree that much evil has been brought about by following the traditions of men, such as the trinity, that make the truth of God invalid.

Yes, God said to those trapped by false religion and the traditions of men; "get out of her my people" and so God does not condemn good hearted people no matter what religion they are in but he does warn them to get out while the gettin' good.

This seems to be a strange thing to say about "genuine believers."

But I believe it was the common believers that turned the "heretics" over to the hierarchy.

The real cause being believing the lie of the trinity?

Let's see, they were "Trinitarians" but didn't call themselves "Trinitarians", I don't really see the difference.

And yet if a person asks me what do you call that thing that you smell with, I know enough to tell them it's my nose.

Knowing that God is Jehovah and is not a triune god does not deprive one of divine life in fact it is taking in knowledge of Jehovah, the only true God, and of the one he sent forth, Jesus Christ, that means everlasting life.

Well, seeing as the "trinity" is a pagan concept and is not taught in the Bible, it's a wonder anyone believes in it.

Or as in your a case an imaginary god.

So, no, "Trinitarianism" didn't perform atrocities, people who believed in "Trinitarianism" did.

Again unChristian and unnecessary.

By their fruits you will know them.

Yeah right, like I believe you have a time machine.

And a vested interest in having people believe that God is triune.

No, one demented fan does not disqualify the artist or even two or three. But if the majority of his fans are demented then one might want to ask if something is rotten in Denmark.

I'm quite sure that Ukr-Cdn would disagree with you on that.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Even not knowing what you were trying to say, this still seems like a misapplication of Scripture.

Your point being?

Your point being?

Your point being?

Your point being?

I mean, even if the majority of the Jews though out their history were unfaithful. They were still God's people and through out their history Jehovah sent them his faithful servants to call them back to true worship of the one true God, Jehovah and interestingly not once did any of faithful servants sent by God say anything about or even imply worshiping a triune god.

 

^^^This is the thread that never will end, huh....oh, and that is in spite of the fact that any possible "answer" would have been pages and pages and yes, pages ago.

 

AH, you are one of the people who believe that Jesus never spoke evil of any man, no? Actually, I'm a bit flattered that you would not portray me as a "Christian", since I do not hold such a term in very high esteem, knowing how "Christians" behave so much of the time. I'd rather just be called a seeker of the truth.

You also believe that you are "doing God's will", I don't doubt. Whether you believe in a "Triune God" or not is not my concern. What is my concern is the truth revealed in the scriptures, which you seem to be willing to deny.

You give credit where credit is not due. Catholicism is not the source of the "concept" of the Triune God, but the Triune God Himself. Catholicism only made it ineffective, by transforming it from a life-imparting reality to a lifeless doctrinal dispute, based on a misunderstanding of scripture and a tri-theistic approach.

The Father, Son, and Spirit are not a tradition, but a living, life-imparting reality. The traditional view propagated by Catholicism keeps this reality at a "safe", objective distance, nullifying it's capacity to infuse man with God's life and nature, and simultaneously making ineffective the Body of Christ, choosing rather to worship Mary, pray to idols, and rob the poor.

Believers can be misled. That doesn't change the genuine intent of their hearts. Eventually, if a believer is sincere and seeking, God will save him/her from systems of delusion, into a richer, brighter reality.

Maybe I shouldn't use the word "common". I'm not referring to the masses. I meant "simple" believers, not the politically motivated, or those willing to cooperate with the evil system of error in persecuting others.

The Father, the Son, the Spirit. These are not lies. This is the Godhead.

It sounds to me as if you've really become lazy, or perhaps just more "economical" in your thinking, having selected a single scapegoat for all the evils of Christianity. It sounds very Hitlerian, in that Hitler also found a scapegoat for all the evils of Germany. I find it unimaginable that any thinking person could simply blame "Trinitarians" for every evil thing present in Christianity. I blame Christianity itself. Any "anity" is not real. Only Christ is real. "Anity" be damned.

"A nose, by any other name,,,". The function is the key, not the description. Having fabricated a description or affixed a title to an object does not guarantee it's function. The purpose of the three of the Godhead is dispense the life of God, not to become objects of debate.

God is indeed Jehovah, but that Jehovah today is called Jesus. The knowledge of "Jehovah" is to know Jesus. Read your New Testament, man. God did "send forth" Jesus, but not without, but with God.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overcome it. 6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came for a testimony that he might testify concerning the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came that he might testify concerning the light. 9 This was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, yet those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, 13 Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. 15 John testified concerning Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who is coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me.

Fanatics of all beliefs have committed atrocities. Many times it is the outwardly "faithful" that do so, those that make a show of their faith, and stir themselves into a religious frenzy, willing to commit atrocities based on their fervor for their "God". This kind of behavior is not exclusive to those calling themselves "Christians".

Quoting scripture doesn't keep one from becoming an idiot. And quit comparing me with "Christians". I disallow that as a descriptive term, in any case, as it means so many different things to so many different people. Using the "C" word on me isn't going to make me believe sheer idiocy.

But here you are saying that you are intimately familiar with all those who profess God to be Father, Son, and Spirit? I think not. You only follow the popular view.

Your point in saying this was that God's people did not worship a Triune God.

I walk daily, going about doing things which support my human life and the lives of my family members. I rarely need to declare the functions of my bodily organs which are vital to my existence, though I would hardly survive without lungs, liver, kidneys, heart, brain, etc. Just because I am not mentioning these items to every passer-by takes nothing away from their importance to my continued well-being. Without the Father, Son, and Spirit, God would remain distant and objective, and unable to be of any affect on us, His creation, except in a purely outward sense. But the bible speaks clearly of the power of His life in us, even of Christ in us, as the Spirit of life. God the Father transmits His power, His life to us, in Christ, as the Spirit of life.

Read Romans 8. A great chapter in so many ways, coming from the background of chapter 7 and man's frustration in pleasing God. Romans 8 reveals a God who is now in us as "the Spirit", as "Christ", as "the Spirit of Christ", as "the Spirit of life", as "the Spirit of the One who raised Christ from among the dead". This indwelling God is just Christ, who is the manifestation of the Father, conveyed to us as Spirit. This is our God, who is living, and living in us.

Until the coming of Jesus, God had not yet been incarnated. And as John 7 reveals, "the Spirit was not yet", before Christ' resurrection. The Spirit of the resurrected Christ had not yet come into being, not until John chapter 20, when He appeared to His disciples in a closed room, and "breathed into them", saying "Receive the Holy Spirit". This is not the "Spirit of God", as referred to in the Old Testament, before Christ' incarnation, but the "Spirit of Jesus Christ" (Phil.1:19), or the "Holy Spirit", or the "Spirit of Christ", as revealed in the New Testament. Through the coming of Jesus, many things have changed. God's focus today is on Christ, and His enlargement, the church, which is His Body.

Service to God, worship of God, all of this involved the Aaronic priesthood, in the Old Testament, and offerings. All of these offerings were merely symbolic, and represented Christ, in many aspects. Today, we serve God through Christ as our offering, and by the Spirit in our spirit. Paul states in Romans chapter 1 "God,,whom I serve in my spirit in the gospel of His Son",,

 

Dhuhr 1:26pm est///// Praise Allah.. brb got to wash my toes and put my head to the carpet for imaginary GOD..

 

Is that supposed to be a good joke? Otherwise it just seems lame and disrespectful to me.

 

Actually not a joke at all, I was gone for 20minutes praying.
I have a Islamic pray clock on my widget, Maybe if you paid closer attention to all things and not one thing, you would know that Ive put prayer times up many many many many time before. Accurately also:2thumbsup:

I am a secular Muslim. We can make jokes about Islam, ALLAH, Muhammad, We dont cut your head off or insight terrorism and bash gay people.. How many Muslims do you know?


Imaginary GOD seems to be the theme of this thread.. Sorry you didnt understand my intentions.. But if that upset you so much, I have the number to FOI and you can report me to the bigot sect....

 

your welcome.

 

It didn't upset me, I just misinterpreted your post. Perhaps I thought it was a joke because of the smilies? I don't know, didn't had a clue you're muslim.
I do know a few muslims actually, they're pretty cool and not fundamentalistic at all either. They're at least as hypocrite as atheists and christians and they like good jokes as well indeed. Sorry if I offended you because I didn't thought of the possibility you were serious :2thumbsup:

 

How is the reality of the Real Presence of Christ keeping God at a safe and sterile distance?

 

Why don't you tell us? I didn't say it.

 

It's simple; the existence of God is an existence beyond all delusion. The deepest most intimate loves we feel as Being God are self-conscious to each one of us, in a wholly illusory manner, at the same time that we have become adept at handling the life of It. But to worry about such an existence, such a Thou, there existing Brahman, defines for proof a God beyond all gods, a God for the living of the most high; in his seat of Power, I am You, you are Me, and the life of each one of Us is One. At the same time this all-powerful being has the position to control the will of everyone's Will for the Ideal with no question of delusion.:willy_nilly:

 

I was just wondering if you could clarify this statement:

maybe in a PM.

 

Let me take a stab. Conceptually, the reality of the Real Presence of Christ, if it were a reality, would bridge the distance between God and humanity. But that "reality" is a doctrinal construct. If a Catholic receiving the eucharist feels that (s)he is at one with Christ, it's arguable that, for all practical purposes, that is the believer's reality. It's my impression that many (most?) Catholics taking a wafer into their mouths can give assent to the Church's doctrine, as Mormons can assent to Joseph's Smith's remarkable spectacles. But is Christ "really" there? Is Jesus really in the tabernacle because the Church says so?

Catholicism emphasizes the role of intermediaries between humans and God. In that sense, it places God at some distance. Catholic prayers tend to be rote formulas prescribed by the Church. Do the people saying them always know what they're saying, after the 20th Hail Mary? They don't sound like it. But for many it works. That may be what's really important.

 

I know what you mean. The Catholics prove that the Anglicans have the mystery of faith in the connection between the mustard seed for the word spreading the message from God and the love of the neighbor yielding the attitude of a commandment of the free unselfish Act.

 

Catholicism objectifies God in several, often subtle ways. Most wouldn't know, since most aren't that interested in having a vital, intimate contact with God, rather than merely having a prescription given them to satisfy their present spiritual need. When said prescription is given, it is usually through an intermediary, i.e., a "priest", or "father", which intermediary then takes the place of the living Christ as the One who God provides as our true bridge to God.

So, firstly, the idea of an "intermediary", which carries over from the days when the church also held the bible prisoner, not allowing the common man to read it, unless he/she were to, say, study Latin. The printing press and translation into the common language solved that, but still, the church (Catholicism, not really "the church", as the church in scripture has no such added descriptive title, not "this" church, or "that" church, but merely designated by the city of locality, e.g.,,"the Church in Ephesus", etc.. Catholicism crept in and became the mother of all such divisions to the Body),,the church makes all sorts of threats to the believer, stating that anyone not having been baptized a "Catholic" isn't safe from the fires of hell.

Further, the matter of "trans-substantiation", or the literalism of the bread actually "becoming" the true "body of Christ", is bogus. When Jesus said "This is My Body",,he wasn't speaking literally, as if the bread was actually, literally His Body. That title, today, is reserved for the genuine church, as Paul uses it at the end of Ephesians 2,,"the church,,which is His Body,,". The bread is purely symbolic in nature, representing His physical Body, broken for us, that we may indeed partake of in spirit, in reality, as we enjoy the symbols of the bread and the wine as physical conveniences in remembering His death, and enjoying His sweet presence with us in resurrection, as a life-giving Spirit, as Paul tells us in ICorinthians 15:45.

Nextly, the Father, Son, and Spirit are given a place in Catholicism as mere rhetorical references for the priest to toss out in his repetitive chantings, as if God were to hear him based on saying "the magic words". The doctrine of Catholicism does not adequately address the real importance of the Triune God, as the means of dispensing God into our being, the Father being the source, the Son as His expression, and the Spirit conveying all the reality of the Father, in the Son, to us, to be our life and life-supply, and our moment by moment enjoyment.

Catholicism keeps people away from God, with so much man-made hierarchy layered upon layer, and the clear implication that the common man does not have the same access to God as the cleric. All the hocus-pocus that the "priest" performs, waving his hands over things and such just creates a kind of "mystical" appearance to his ramblings, along with the "special" clothing he wears. This is a carry-over from the Old Testament, when the Aaronic priest wore things that had real spiritual significance, which I won't get into in this post. Today, no such practice is called for in the New Testament. No special clothing, no clergy, just believers, having a vital relationship one with another in Christ, with the standing of the members ordered by life, and maturity, not merely by appointments based on the local politics.

Jesus said to "call no man on earth your father, for One is your Father, who is in heaven, and you all are brothers".

The priesthood was intended for all, not just a select group of believers. Peter asserts this in his epistles. The tribe of Levi was set apart from the others, in the Old Testament, because of their faithfulness, and made a tribe of priests. Today, this is not the case, but through Christ, every believer is encouraged to have direct fellowship with God, and every believer is encouraged to be a priest, an ambassador of God, ministering God to others.

The matter of the separation between clergy and laity, or the "pulpit and the pew", was condemned by the Lord in the book of Revelation, where He condemns the works of the Nicolaitans (Revelation 2:6)

Here is a pertinent footnote:

* (1)(a)Nicolaitans
# Re 2.15
The Greek word is composed of two words, one meaning conquer or
be victorious over and another meaning common people, secular
people, or laity. Thus, it means conquering the common people,
being victorious over the laity. Nicolaitans, then, must refer to
a group of people who esteem themselves higher than common
believers. This was undoubtedly the hierarchy adopted and
established by Catholicism and Protestantism. The Lord hates the
works, the behavior, of these Nicolaitans, and we must hate what
the Lord hates.
God in His economy intended that all His people be priests
serving Him directly. In Exo. 19:6, God ordained the children of
Israel to be a kingdom of priests. This means that God wanted them
all to be priests. However, because they worshipped the golden
calf (Exo. 32:1-6), they lost the priesthood, and only the tribe
of Levi, because of its faithfulness to God, was chosen to replace
the whole nation of Israel as priests to God (Exo. 32:25-29; Deut.
33:8-10). Hence, there was a mediatorial class between God and the
children of Israel. This became a strong system in Judaism. In the
New Testament, God has returned to His original intention
according to His economy, in that He has made all believers in
Christ priests (1:6; 5:10; 1·Pet. 2:5, 9). But at the end of the
initial church, even in the first century, the Nicolaitans
intervened as the mediatorial class to spoil God's economy.
According to church history, this became a system that was adopted
by the Roman Catholic Church and has been retained by the
Protestant churches. Today in the Roman Catholic Church there is
the priestly system, in the state churches there is the clerical
system, and in the independent churches there is the pastoral
system. All these are a mediatorial class, spoiling the universal
priesthood of all believers. Thus, there are two distinct
classes--the clergy and the laity. But in the proper church life
there should be neither clergy nor laity; all believers should be
priests of God. Because the mediatorial class destroys the
universal priesthood in God's economy, the Lord hates it.

These are just a few ways in which direct access to God, through Christ, without the use of a "mediatorial class" of believers is discouraged in Catholicism.

The matter of the Father, Son, and Spirit is kept tidily in the form of rhetoric, for doctrinal dispute, and not as God intended, as a means for us to enjoy and participate in Him.

 

But what of the "seed of Love" passing out and by the Word for the indefinable rebirth of God? We do against Hate of every conscience of the Spirit of deciding what in the commanding by the Lord. Simpler concluded by the positivism of protestant remorse: we must love eternally.

Conclusively; we may conclude that the bible may not have to be read and the faith in the christian God is still achieved as actually present in the World.

 

I agree, but it certainly isn't just Catholics who are guilty of this. In fact, I think Protestants are particularly inclined to emphasize intellectual acceptance of certain beliefs as the essential condition for salvation. This is due to their skewed emphasis on a version of Paul's "Justification by faith alone", as interpreted by St. Augustine, as adapted by Martin Luther, and misinterpreted by generations of fundamentalist preachers. The confusion between faith and belief is at the root of the problem. With the possible exception of Islam, Christians have been more preoccupied with correct belief as the key to salvation than any other religious people . What is a Christian? Someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God who was sent from on high to be sacrificed for our sins and rose from the grave? That is the answer based on a literal reading of Paul. By the fourth century we had more elaborate doctrines set forth in the Apostle's creed, the Nicene creed, the Athanasian creed, etc. So that when I tell someone I'm a Christian, they ask Do you really believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, etc.? I don't believe any of it, but I consider myself a Christian because I try to follow the teachings and personal example of Jesus as I understand them. I'm not the only one to hold these views. They're set forth in a book by a fellow Oklahoman Rev. Robin R. Meyers, pastor of Mayflower Congregational Church and professor in the philosophy of Oklahoma City University. More generally, they're espoused by Marcus Borg Bishop Spong, and other Progressive Chrisitians.

In Saving Jesus from the Church: How to Stop Worshiping Christ and Start Following Jesus, Meyers argues: "The church must now take a pledge to correct its most recent heresy: teaching faith as a belief system characterized by certainty. Instead we must recover faith's original impulse. It was never an intellectual assent to implausible assertions that could be traded for improbable favors. It was a deep and abiding trust in the 'arc of the moral universe' and the redemptive power of the beloved community." Jesus gave us the means of understanding the true nature of reality. "The Kingdom of Heaven is spread out everywhere upon the earth, and people do not see it." They don't see it because of the smokescreen of double talk that they encounter in their churches, mosques and synagogues.

 

____________ It's all in good jest to eliminate each one of our personal concerns for certainty and Time thus being the better form of the blessed for reasoning that sort of actually already Dogma. It is the form of Belief that is taught for the naive feeling of incompleteness and the leap to improbability and indeterminism. I feel that the determinism of community in various triads is a solution for the intentional form of Law and Order which remembers as it once did the church throughout the rest of the Week. Good to know you. Today is Thursday, the day of busy uncertainty to find other intentions Good in the exchange of wealth and deeding the working and non-working as equal before the Godhead.

 

DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! Yea, verily.