If you do not believe in God, you must not have read the Bible

Personally, I don't care what people call me, since the term "Christian" was misunderstood long ago, and was negatively assigned by opposers in the beginning, as a derogatory term.

I also won't argue about the details, as it takes much unpopular explanation to define.

Suffice it to say that Paul (Saul), an opposer, and actively seeking out the believers in order to put them to death, became a believer in a mere moment, when he called Jesus "Lord". Reference Acts chapter 9.

When the (old school) camera takes a picture, all that is necessary is that the iris/shutter opens, just a little, for an instant, and the light comes in, to expose the film. The image is there. Without an opened heart there is no possibility of one's being saved. It is not a purely intellectual event.

From Romans 10:

"9 That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation"

And why the qualifier ",,and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead,,"? Because if you don't believe this, you are praying to a dead guy. God doesn't listen to rote, meaningless prayers.

From Hebrews 11:

"6 But without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing to Him, for he who comes forward to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

 

I'd say it goes even furthur back to when God had priests, such as Aaron who were specially designated to offer sacrifices. I'd also argue that the exposion of the Scriptures and the idea of "individual interpretation" has destroyed the Body more because of teh countless asseblies separated from one another.

I'd argue it rather does. The sacraments are the ordinary means by which we receive saving grace. Through the sacrament of confirmation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, through the Eucharist we partake in offering Christ's sacrifice for eternity in union with the sacrifice in Heaven, and the Father, well, is the source of all things and it is to him that most prayers of the Mass are adressed.

Of course it is not vital, but as humans we attempt to show the fullness of our devotion--this is how we do just that. By creating a sacred time apart from profane things, we clearly demacate the significance of the Sacrifice of the Mass or Divine Liturgy.

Paul calls himself a spiritual father to others cf. 1 Cor. 4:14–15

Agreed. Why do you think God has chosen so many to be laity? Clerics are not more special than laity, but they have an important role, just as laity do. Not better, just different.

 

The Aaronic priesthood was not God's original intention, but only came about due to the unfaithfulness of the other 11 tribes. In the New Testament, we are all called to "offer up spiritual sacrifices", as priests to God, and we are all called to minister Christ to one another, as well as to the unbelievers. There is no legitimacy to a "lay" member. All genuine believers have been called to serve and worship God.

These are all mere rituals, which cannot give life. The sealing of the Holy Spirit takes place when one receives Christ, whether connected to the Catholic denomination or not, as Christ is received AS the Spirit. Christ and the Spirit are one.

The Spirit today is the reality of Christ, and conveys the Son, with the Father, into our experience. It is by the Spirit that Christ indwells the believer.

I remember when I was a member of a Christian cult I joined up with in 1970. They had this belief that a person needs firstly to be "saved", by "receiving Jesus in your heart" (actually just a rote prayer. God knows how many were actually, organically "saved"). Then the second step was to "receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit", which was supposed to be accompanied by some "signs", like "speaking in tongues". This was pure bullroar. The Spirit is not some "extra" that God gives people. The Spirit IS the factor that brings Christ into us. When Paul, in Romans 8, Colossians 1, and elsewhere, speaks of Christ being IN US, he was not talking about a representative, but Christ Himself. Christ is both in the heavenlies and IN US, simultaneously, as He states in John 14:20

20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you

God's intention is that He would indwell His believers, not merely "control" them.

There is no need, for a genuine believer, to "create a sacred time". For a believer, God, Christ, the Spirit, are 24/7.

Jesus says in John 15, "If you abide in Me, and I in you,,," He calls us "branches" in the Vine, the Vine being Himself. Tell me, how many "branches" do you see having time "away from the Vine"?

"The fullness of our devotion"? How full can one's "devotion" be, when a "time" is set aside to pay attention to God? It's because devotion is lacking that this "time" needs to be "allocated" to God, as if you're doing Him a "favor". It reminds me of Jacob's "deal" with God, that he agreed to give God "ten percent" of whatever profit he made,,,

The apostles stated that the gifts received from the believers were to be given in this principle, that firstly, they themselves BELONGED to God, and secondly, following that, that their possessions also belonged to Him, since the possessions belonged to one who belonged to God.

How "generous" could one be, to give "some time" to God?

Okay, I'll quote the verses here.

14 It is not to shame you that I write these things but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you have ten thousand guides in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel

* (1)guides
Lit., child-conductors; as in Gal. 3:24-25.
* (2)(a)fathers
# 1Th 2.11 Nu 11.12
Guides, child-conductors, give instructions and directions to
the children who are under their guardianship; fathers impart life
to their children whom they beget. The apostle was such a father;
he had begotten the Corinthian believers in Christ through the
gospel, imparting the divine life into them so that they became
children of God and members of Christ.
* (b)in
# 1Co 1.30
* (c)begotten
# Ga 4.19 Phm 10 Jas 1.18 1Pe 1.23, 25 Joh 3.3, 5
* (d)gospel
# 1Co 9.12, 14, 18, 23, 15.1

So, there is a place for describing the relationship between the apostle and his spiritual children in this way, but this became a religious tradition with Catholicism. There is a difference between a reality, in life, and a religious tradition, carried out by ritualistic tradition. I'm quite certain Paul was not addressed as "father" by the believers. He mentions it to show them how important his relationship to them was.

Today, however, this term "father" has become a formal title, and commonly used even by people who have NO vital relationship with the adressee. There is NO reality represented in the continuing usage of such a term, for someone who is not one's spiritual father, through whom they did not receive Christ.

The believers had a tendency to neglect the apostles, and Paul repeatedly mentions to them that though he has learned to be content, there is a life-relationship between them that is vital and important, as he is the one through whom they had received Christ. (In saying "received Christ", I'm not referring to a "wafer". That is merely symbolic, and not the reality. The Spirit is the reality, and is not automatically transferred by the receiving of a "wafer" of bread.)

This is not the same as someone dressed in fancy clothes, handing out wafers, while mumbling something in Latin, carrying on a pretense.

God never chose anyone to be "laity". Where did you get this information? There is no legitimacy to this. He enourages ALL to participate in the ministry, whether one-talented or ten-talented. This is reflected in Paul's word about the meetings of the church, in ICorinthians 14.

There are NO believers that are not encouraged to both receive, and dispense Christ, as an issue of their salvation. God didn't save some to "the pulpit", and others to "the pew".

 

I am constantly amazed how people who believe in a triune god can casually quote a scripture like this that flat out disproves the triune god and ignore it's meaning.

 

Me too, or when they quote in Revelations that Jesus is the first and last. First being that he was a created being and seeing as God isn't created, that pretty much disproves any triune God.

 

How does Jesus claiming to be the First and the Last disprove the Triune God?

 

Your thinking is too simplistic, always falling back on your own patterns of logic, never able to think outside of your "box".

Is it impossible for you to believe that Jesus had a dual nature? A "hybrid", so to speak?

Human, yet also divine.

Yet, in your own mind, this scripture "disproves" what you wish it to, because of your preference.

Your preference keeps you from seeing the bible in its totality. You select that with which you agree, and discard the rest.

Have you not ever heard the expression, there are always two sides to a coin?

 

Jesus had a dual nature. He was both God, as the Son of God, having divinity, and man, as the Son of Man, having humanity. He was both the created, and the Creator.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being.


14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us (and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only Begotten from the Father), full of grace and reality. 15 John testified concerning Him and cried out, saying, This was He of whom I said, He who is coming after me has become ahead of me, because He was before me. 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Get it? God,,and man. Both in one.

Your limited logic limits your understanding. You lean too heavily on what you already know and have experienced. Open your senses a bit, to include things you've yet to discover. You still have time.

 

Yep, a coin has two sides, just not three.

Oh and thanks for saying my "thinking is too simplistic", that shows that I'm on the right track. (Matthew 11:25)

 

You're quoting Matthew to justify simple-mindedness?

Why aren't you quoting Proverbs? The simple-minded aren't given such a fair shake there.

By the way, being "simplistic" isn't the same as being "as infants".

Infants wouldn't be doing as much thinking as you are, to craft something for the purpose of denial. They'd just take things as they are, instead of explaining away something they may not have an intellectual grasp on.

Which part of the Godhead have you decided isn't divine? The Father? The Son? The Spirit?

What? the Father is divine, and the Spirit, but somehow the Son got left out?

And why have you cut John chapter one from your bible? Oh, and John 14, and 15, and Hebrews 1?

Hebr 1:1 God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, 2 Has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe; 3 Who, being the effulgence of His glory and the impress of His substance and upholding and bearing all things by the word of His power, having made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Having become as much better than the angels as to have inherited a more distinguished name than they. 5 For to which of the angels has He ever said, ``You are My Son; this day have I begotten You''? And again, ``I will be a Father to Him, and He will be a Son to Me''? 6 And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, ``And let all the angels of God worship Him.'' 7 And of the angels He says, ``Who makes His angels winds and His ministers a flame of fire''; 8 But of the Son, ``Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above Your partners''; 10 And, ``You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; 11 They will perish, but You remain perpetually; and they all will become old like a garment, 12 And like a mantle You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed; but You are the same, and Your years will not fail.''

If you read this passage carefully, you will see that the Son is referred to as God, just as the Father. You will also see that the Son created all things, as God. The Son is also referred to as a man, in that God is also His God. Dual nature.

The Son is in the Father, plainly spoken throughout the New Testament. The Son embodies the Father. The Spirit conveys all that the Son has accomplished to us, for our living.

 

how to always win an argument

Evolution and the millions of documentation on it

 

Fail.


Poor grammar. Double fail.

 

On the other hand:

1. The person of the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4).
2. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons (Luke 3:22).
3. The three persons (Father or God; and Son or Christ or Lord; and Holy Spirit or Spirit) are frequently listed together in a triadic pattern (John 14:26)
4. Baptism is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)

 

Mainly because God has no beginning and if he had a beginning then he would not be God but since Jesus had a beginning then he cannot be God.

Can you explain why at John 10:30 Jesus did not say "I and My Father and the Holy Spirit are One" ? If Jesus really wanted to teach the triune God why miss out on an important element of the trinity?

 

John is just letting us know who the Word is. God created the universe through his son. So Jesus can be the creator of all things while at the same time not be God. Just like how Jacob can wrestle with an angel yet say he wrestled with God.

Here's how it looks in the Greek:

Houtos was in the beginning with god. all things came into being through autos, and apart from autos nothing came into being that has come into being.

 

It says that Jesus is the firstborn and yet God was never born and has always existed and so a person actually interested in the truth and not just trying to force the pagan trinity doctrine on others, would see that it is not saying Jesus is God.

 

God was born (John 1:14,,"And the Word [who was God, according to verse 1] became flesh,,") in a manger in Bethlehem, conceived of the Holy Spirit in Mary, when she was espoused to Joseph.

Also, as a man, Jesus was the firstborn Son of God, in resurrection. As God, He is eternal.

(I've said this before, but you obviously passed over it.)

Acts 13:33 "That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, ``You are My Son; today I have begotten You.''

* (1)begotten
Resurrection was a birth to the man Jesus. He was begotten by
God in His resurrection to be the firstborn Son of God among many
brothers (Rom. 8:29). He was the only begotten Son of God from
eternity (John 1:18; 3:16). After incarnation, through
resurrection He was begotten by God in His humanity to be God's
firstborn Son.

Romans 8:29 "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers."

# Heb 1.6 Col 1.18 Re 1.5
Christ was the only begotten Son of God from eternity (John
1:18). When He was sent by God into the world, He was still the
only begotten Son of God (1·John 4:9; John 1:14; 3:16). By His
passing through death and entering into resurrection, His humanity
was uplifted into His divinity. Thus, in His divinity with His
humanity that passed through death and resurrection, He was born
in resurrection as God's firstborn Son (Acts 13:33). At the same
time, all His believers were raised together with Him in His
resurrection (1·Pet. 1:3) and were begotten together with Him as
the many sons of God. Thus they became His many brothers to
constitute His Body and be God's corporate expression in Him.
As the only begotten Son of God, Christ had divinity but not
humanity; He was self-existing and ever-existing, as God is. His
being the firstborn Son of God, having both divinity and humanity,
began with His resurrection. With His firstborn Son as the base,
pattern, element, and means, God is producing many sons, and the
many sons who are produced are the many believers who believe into
God's firstborn Son and are joined to Him as one. They are exactly
like Him in life and nature, and, like Him, they have both
humanity and divinity. They are His increase and expression in
order that they may express the eternal Triune God for eternity.
The church today is a miniature of this expression (Eph. 1:23),
and the New Jerusalem in eternity will be the ultimate
manifestation of this expression (Rev. 21:11). This book reveals
that God's making sinners His sons is for this expression (12:5)
and points to the ultimate manifestation of this expression (Eph.
3:19).
* (5)many
The purpose of God's foreknowledge, predestination, and calling
is to prepare and produce many brothers for His firstborn Son (see
note 17(2) in John 20) that, on the one hand, they, together with
God's firstborn Son, may be the many sons of God with the divine
life and nature for the expression of God, and that, on the other
hand, they may be the many members who constitute the Body of
God's firstborn Son as the corporate expression of God in His
firstborn Son, which is the fullness of God's firstborn Son, that
is, the fullness of God in His firstborn Son (Eph. 1:23; 3:19).
* (d)brothers
# Joh 20.17 Mt 28.10 Heb 2.11-12 Heb 2.10

John 20:17 "Jesus said to her, Do not touch Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."

Hebrews 2:11 "For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brothers,"

",,all of One,,", meaning from the same source, God. The eternal God, manifest in Jesus Christ, has, by His Spirit, regenerated us. This makes us God's genuine children, born of Him, by His very life, as Christ is. This makes us members of Christ, branches in the Vine, sharing the same life and nature as the firstborn Son of God.

God became a man that man might become God, in life and nature, but not as members of the Godhead, or as objects of worship. We, all those who have been regenerated by the Spirit, are genuine sons of God, born of His life.

Hebrews 2:10 "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings."

Jesus, the man, in resurrection, became the "firstborn Son of God", and we, the "many brothers", were raised with Him, according to scripture. In His resurrection we all were regenerated to be the many sons.

# Ro 8.29
The many sons here are the many brothers in Rom. 8:29 and the
many grains in John 12:24.
* (3)(c)glory
# Ro 8.21, 30 1Co 2.7 Col 3.4 1Th 2.12 1Pe 5.10
The last step of God's great salvation is to bring His many
sons into glory. Romans 8 tells us that God's work of grace upon
us began with His foreknowing, passed through His predestination,
calling, and justification, and will end with His glorification
(Rom. 8:29-30). Also, Rom. 8 tells us that the whole creation
eagerly awaits the revelation (glorification) of the sons of God,
in hope that the creation itself will enter into the freedom of
the glory of the children of God (Rom. 8:19-21). This will be
accomplished by the Lord's coming back (Phil. 3:21), at which time
we will be manifested with Him in glory (Col. 3:4); this is our
hope (Col. 1:27). This glorification of the sons of God, as the
goal of God's salvation, will last through the millennial kingdom
and will be manifested in full in the New Jerusalem for eternity
(Rev. 21:11, 23).

IPeter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead."

John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name, 13 Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

God is born again every time someone receives Christ.

Is it too foreign a concept to accept that God can grow?

Colossians 2:19 "And not holding the Head, out from whom all the Body, being richly supplied and knit together by means of the joints and sinews, grows with the growth of God."

* (1)not
The heresy of angel worship distracted the saints from holding
Christ as the Head. God's economy is to head up all things in
Christ (Eph. 1:10) through His Body, the church, making Christ the
center of all things. The subtle one's device is to carry the
saints away and thus cause the Body of Christ to collapse.
* (a)holding
# Eph 4.15
* (2)(b)out
# Eph 4.16
The phrase out from whom indicates that the Body of Christ
grows out from the Head, for all the supply comes from the Head.
* (3)Body
The heresy caused the saints to be severed from the Head, and
thus it damaged the Body. The apostle's revelation uplifted Christ
and caused the Body to be safeguarded and built up.
* (4)joints
Joints are for the supply of the Body.
* (5)sinews
Sinews are for the knitting together of the members of the
Body.
* (6)grows
Growing is a matter of life, which is God Himself. As the Body
of Christ, the church should not be deprived of Christ, who is the
embodiment of God as the source of life. By holding Christ, the
church grows with the growth of God, with the increase of God as
life.
* (7)growth
The growth of the Body of Christ has nothing to do with
doctrinal knowledge of the Bible, the way of worship, or any such
matter. Rather, the growth of the Body depends on the growth of
God, the increase of God's element, in the Body.

 

I didn’t pass it over, it just wasn’t worth commenting on.

But if you insist, first, you like all of your ilk are wont to slip in comments like “As God, He is eternal” like it is a fact that Jesus is God but this fact can not be proved, because Jesus although being a mighty one is not the almighty one, Jehovah.

Which begs the questions; Why, if the "fact" Jesus is God and part of some kind triune god is so important to "true" worship, why didn't Jesus just come out and say he was God and part of a triune god?

And why, if worshiping a triune is so important to "true" worship, why aren't we asked to confess that Jesus is God and part of a triune god?

Interestingly we are only asked to confess that Jesus is the "Son of God" and never are we asked to confess that Jesus is God, "God the Son" or that Jesus is part of a triune god, in fact to do so would be going "beyond the things that are written". (1 John 4:15)(1 Corinthians 4:6)

Also you try to use a Scripture that says nothing about Jesus being the firstborn, to try and prove that Jesus being born as a man was what was meant by Jesus being firstborn. But let’s look at a Scripture that actually talks about Jesus being firstborn:
Colossians 1:15 (KJV)
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature

Now let’s look at what this says and doesn't say. It says that Jesus was “the firstborn of every creature”, not the firstborn of men or man but the firstborn of every creature. Interestingly the word “creature” carries with it the concept of something created thus it is saying that Jesus was created. Now why would you overlook something like that? Is it so you can continue to promote the pagan idea of the trinity?

But we are not done yet, let’s look again at Colossians 1:15. Colossians says that Jesus “is the image of the invisible God”, does not mean that Jesus is God? No, it say that he “is the image of the invisible God”. What is an “image”? is it the thing itself? No, it is a representation of the real thing, like a photograph is a image of a real thing but is not the real thing itself but a representation of the real thing.

 

Interestingly, you conveniently ignore that the Scripture says God raised up Jesus and not that Jesus; who was dead at the time, otherwise why would he need to be raised up, raised himself up.