If you do not believe in God, you must not have read the Bible

Again it is obvious that in your rush to push forward this pagan concept of a triune god, you continue to over look what even a child knows, that a Father and his Son are not the same person.

John 20:17 "Jesus said to her, ... go to My brothers and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."

IPeter 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

So, you believe that all it takes to make something true is to provide more rhetoric than someone that actually is telling the truth?

 

Here's something online that I found that some might find informative:

"John 10:30 has the word "one" in the neuter gender (ἕν) in the Greek. This would denote one "thing," not one "person." This neuter construction shows oneness in cooperation.

The neuter word "one" also shows oneness in cooperation in John 17:21 and 1 Corinthians 3:8. In John 17:21, Jesus did not mean all his disciples were one person. In 1 Corinthians, Paul did not mean that he and Apollos were one person.

On the other hand, when God is referred to as one person, it uses the masculine gender for "one," (εἷς) not neuter. Mark 12:29 says God is "one" person. As does James 2:19."

Verses:

John 17:21 NIV
that all of them may be one (ἕν), Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us (2443. hina - Link) so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

one - strong's number 1520 - εἷς, μία, ἕν
man, one another, only, other, some.

(including the neuter (etc.) Hen); a primary numeral; one -- a(-n, -ny, certain), + abundantly, man, one (another), only, other, some. See also heis kath heis, medeis, mia, oudeis.

1 Corinthians 3:8
The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor.

one strong's number 1520 - same as above

Verses that describes God using masculine gender (εἷς - Link) one and not neuter one (ἕν - Link):​

Mark 12:29
"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one (εἷς).

James 2:19
You believe that there is one (εἷς) God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.

 

1. The person of the Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). (Saying you played false to one "person" and then saying you played false to another "person" does not necessarily mean that the two are the same person.)
2. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct persons (Luke 3:22). (Yes, they are indeed separate and distinct.)
3. The three persons (Father or God; and Son or Christ or Lord; and Holy Spirit or Spirit) are frequently listed together in a triadic pattern (John 14:26) (Well I wouldn't say frequently but they are sometimes mentioned together but no attempt is made ever made to show that they are part of a triune god.)
4. Baptism is in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 28:19)(Yes, that is true but again even in this case, no attempt is made ever made to show that they are part of a triune god.)

 

The doctrine of the trinity is never explained in the Bible, but if you look at the first chapters of Genesis it mentions God speaking creation into existence, God's Spirit hovering over the waters and the Lord God walking in the garden. Then God says later that Adam and Eve have become one of us knowing good and evil.

There are three options I can think of when God refers to "us". Either he is refering to himself and the snake (I doubt it), to himself and the angels which haven't been mentioned yet or to himself, the Spirit hovering over the waters and the Lord God manifested walking in the garden. I say the Lord God manifested, because the Father is invisible and spirit and wouldn't be able to be seen by Adam and Eve.

How can we have an intimate relationship with God if he is only an invisible Spirit? That's why I believe he makes himself known in Jesus and by the Holy Spirit.

 

If Paul wanted to describe Jesus as created why wouldn't he use the words "first created" (protokitzo) instead of "firstborn" (prototikto)?

Jesus is the Logos which can be translated "word", "speech", "reason", and derived from the verb lego which means "to count, tell, say, speak" That doesn't sound like a created creature to me.

Jesus is all God ever wanted to say to us.

 

I think when Jesus says he's the beginning and the end it essentially means he's eternal.

Interestingly this quote matches a verse in Isaiah.

"Thus said Jehovah, king of Israel, And his Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts: `I [am] the first, and I the last, And besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

 

Here are a couple of possibilities that you didn't mention: One, He could be using the royal "we", as in royalty talking of themself in the plural. Second, He could be talking to Jesus, seeing as Jesus was the firstborn of creation, Jesus was already alive and standing with God as these words were spoken.

Also the Angels were already in existence when these events took place.(Job 38:1-7)

 

Perhaps because he didn't want to be redundant saying that Jesus was the first created of those created or perhaps he wanted to point out the relationship of Jesus to his Father, as Jehovah's firstborn.

I'm not sure what you are getting at but it could metaphorical, meaning that Jesus was Jehovah's spokesman.

Interesting, seeing as it is said of Jesus that the promises of God became yes, by means of him.

 

The serpent was going against God's work so I doubt he would be included with His Elohim.

 

And another possibility: He was talking about the other gods. The ancient Hebrews may have been henotheists. (See Mark Smith, The Early History of God).

 

I've looked at many examples and some say it means eternity and others say it means start to finish.

And to be honest, you make a good point. I may have jumped the gun :/ Other arguments I have heard is that Revelations isn't clear on who's speaking or that God is speaking through Jesus so it's not really Jesus claiming to be eternal or that Jesus is eternal now as God is eternal after being raised from the dead so he shares in the inheritance.

 

Perhaps but the Bible does not leave much room for such a concept.

 

Again, you only limit God to your human concept. In God, the Son is the image of the Father, His expression, the effulgence of His glory.

You try to hard to bring God down to the level of your limited experience. I mean, really, when Paul likens the relationship between Christ and the church as that of a husband with a wife, do you imagine things as they normally are in a human relationship? Is there sex? Do they use condoms?

You shouldn't limit God to your limited mind, and limited imagination. God isn't taking Jesus to the ballpark, or introducing Him to His first whiskey. You're reversing the order of things. Man should be in God's image, not God in man's image.

You imagine God to be some old gentleman that had a kid, Jesus. It's way too simplistic. You must be reading the juvenile, comic book version of the bible, such as the ones some people go to great lengths to pass out, door to door, and at every laundromat in town.

The Son said quite a few things that fly in the face of what you assert. "I and the Father are one." "I am in My Father, and My Father is in Me." "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." "Why do you say 'show us the Father'?"

Try this one on for size: "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven." So where was Jesus? On earth? In heaven? Try both, at once. (John 3:13)

Again, as a man, Jesus had to go through incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and enthronement, to bring man fully into God, and God fully into man. Now, as the Spirit, He indwells His believers, transforming them into His image by the flowing of His life in us.

"The God of our Lord Jesus Christ" is none other than the Triune God. This is to distinguish the true God from the false ones. If I just said "God", than it would not convey the real story. "The God of our Lord Jesus Christ" is the full God, the true God, the Triune God, the Father, Son, and Spirit. This is the God who came to be a man, in incarnation, lived a perfect and genuine human life as a man, was put to death, raised, ascended, and now is enthroned in the heavenlies. This God is simultaneously in us, His believers, as the Spirit of the resurrected Jesus Christ. This is the true God. He is not the "raw" God of Islam or Judaism. Today, He is the fully prepared, "cooked" God, ready for us to enjoy. Pull up a chair and eat.

 

Why is this important? Too much ink and blood have already been spilled over this issue, and poking around in ancient texts as though they provide an unambiguous answer is futile. As Pastor Robin Meyers says: " Arguing over the
metaphysics of Christ only divides us. But agreeing to follow the essential teachings of Jesus could unite us. We could become imitators, not believers."

 

Following the "teachings" of Christ is really quite ambiguous in itself. What are the "essential teachings of Christ" is hard for many to agree on. Many have no clue what that means, apart from some form of "good behavior". He said a lot more than that. Rather than "good behavior", His idea was "God behavior". Behavior, the flesh, and the law are not in God's intention. The Spirit, and faith, and our growth in the divine life is. We are not destined to merely "change ourselves", or "improve our behavior". We are destined to be sons of God, having His life and nature, living in Him as our "street of gold".

 

I'm a Christian, and I've felt for years that most Christians have no clue how to read the Bible.

 

Jesus himself argued these things so I really don't see the issue.

As long as everyone is respectful to one another then where is the harm? As soon as conversation turns into a brawl instead of a discussion then maybe things should cool off but if everyone stays silent in their opinion then where would we be? I mean scholars make a living off of it so why can't we share in on the action?

Also, why would discussion lead to bloodshed? There's something very wrong about that. I mean, I can't imagine Paul, Peter, Steven, etc killing someone because someone disagreed with them.

Don't get me wrong though, I have the same concerns as you and I struggle with them sometimes. One of the ways I cope is try to reply with as direct and short of a reply as possible trying to answer the questions because I don't want to incite bad vibes. When does a discussion stop becoming a discussion and turn into something destructive? Just as long as people share opinions and hear each other out and have the right intentions behind them then it's ok i think.

 

No, I only limit God to what He has told us and do not go beyond what is written as you do.

I don't try to do anything of the kind but I do try very hard to worship the way God says and do not go beyond what is written as you do.

Well I do have to say you have a wild imagination but once again, God asked us in his word the Bible not go beyond what is written as you do.

Well God is called the ancient of days and the Bible does say Jesus was his Son, so no I would not say it is something I imagined.

See, it is people like you that won't except the simple truth that God is Jehovah and that Jesus is his Son, that is spoken of at (Matthew 11:25) you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes.

Actually, If you didn't want to cling to the unscriptural pagan concept of a triune god, all of these are quite easy to understand.

Jesus was on earth talking about the fact that he was at one time a occupant of heaven and was to return to heaven after his death and resurrection.

Jesus was not incarnated, he was an actual human being a man. the rest of this is basically your unsupported imagination.

Yeah right, obviously Jesus is here saying that my God is me.

The simple truth is that Jesus is saying that he has a God and that God is the one God and that God is not a triune god that he is a part of.

Well you were doing pretty good, up till you started going off about the "triune god".

No, what the scriptures say is that God's Son came to be a man, lived a perfect and genuine human life as a man, was put to death, raised from death by God, ascended, and now is enthroned in the heaven at God's right hand.

God did not create Man as a vessel for his spirit or that matter anybody else's, I mean what for? If God just wants to use us as hand puppets, why give us free will in the first place? Honestly, what you seem to be talking about is demon possession not the operation of the Holy Spirit.

 

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.(John 17:3)